THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Steve Hoffman: So these. algorithms I see are great or not great, but they are very innovative and very powerful tools in the hands of artists, human beings to create a next-generation, envisioning what a next generation of art just like a paintbrush, just like a chisel. These are new tools for creating art. Just like when? Now. Cinema is art, right? But before the advent of the machine, the cameras, and the projectors and everything, we didn’t have that art form. We have a new art form with computers, right? It’s a new art form. But like you were saying, we as the artist, right? Us as an artist, it’s up to us how we use them. And then it’s also up to society, how it interprets what we create and what that means to society itself.
Speaker 2: It’s the Inspiration Place podcast with artist Miriam Shulman. Welcome to the Inspiration Place Podcast, an Art World Insider podcast for artists by an artist where each week we go behind the scenes to uncover the perspiration and inspiration behind the art. And now your host, Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman: Well, hello Artpreneur! This is Miriam Schulman, your curator of inspiration and you’re listening to episode #251 of The Inspiration Place podcast. I’m so grateful that you’re here. Once again, we are talking all about artificial intelligence. But this time, with an eye to the future of how it effects the art world. But before we bring on today’s guest, I wanted to make sure that you knew I’m putting a lot of your favorite episodes over on YouTube. Plus some new ones, not interviews but videos. So if you rather watch than listen, you can find The Inspiration Place over on my YouTube channel. Plus, each episode has bonus material. For example, you’ll get to see images of the art we’re talking about so that it compliments whatever it is I’m discussing with my guest. And, now on with the show.
Today’s guest is the chairman and CEO of Founders Space, a global innovation hub for entrepreneurs, corporations and investors. He’s also a venture investor, founder of three venture-backed and two bootstrapped startups and author of several award-winning books, including Make Elephants Fly, Surviving a Startup and the Five Forces. While in Hollywood, he worked as a TV development executive at Fries Entertainment, which produced over 100 TV shows acquired by MGM. And he went on to Pioneer Interactive Television with his venture-funded startup Spider Dance, which produced interactive TV shows for major networks. In Silicon Valley. He founded several more startups in the areas of games and entertainment. He went on to launch Founder Space with the mission to educate and accelerate entrepreneurs. Founder Space has become one of the top startup hubs in the world. Our guest has trained hundreds of startup founders and corporate executives in the art of innovation and provided consulting to many of the world’s largest corporations. Please welcome to The Inspiration Place, Steve Hoffman. Well, hey there, Steve. Welcome to the show.
Steve Hoffman: Hey there, Miriam. It’s fantastic to be here.
Miriam Schulman: Well, I’m so excited to have you. I do have your book, Five Forces. And we were saying right before you hit record, we had done a connection call about what you could possibly talk about [inaudible] audience. And you said, Well, maybe A.I. And I go, well, maybe. And since we spoke, suddenly, it’s like, that’s all anyone wants to talk about. Would you agree with that?
Steve Hoffman: Absolutely. Everybody is talking about art and A.I., and this is something I’ve been saying for years, like when I was saying it early on and I wrote a book about it, The Five Forces, which is pretty recent, but ahead of the explosion, which just happened with Dall-E and Open AI and everything people are doing. But I have been a long believer because I understand technology. I’m an engineer by training like yourself, I’m an engineer. And I understood early on that machines could create art. And this is both a philosophical discussion we can have as well as a technical discussion and a social one. What is art? But I could see early examples, especially in the areas. Now we’re seeing it in the visual arts, but early on we could see it in the areas of music. This has been around a while. Where literally computers could create music that were indistinguishable to the listener from human-created music, and they could do it through algorithms. And if something is indistinguishable, does that mean it’s art or is it not art? Right? If it was created by a machine or created by a human, But honestly, to the listener, which you know, and they don’t know it’s art, right? Because they are just experiencing the music or the visuals for what they are. When they find out it’s a machine, does it change how they view the art? Of course. And but what we’re seeing now in society is absolutely amazing. And we are going it’s going to fundamentally transform what art is, how we create art, what entertainment is our entire society and communication.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, So there’s there’s a couple of tools that I’ve been looking at. Some of them I’ve been very impressed with, some of them not so impressed. Can I be controversial and talk about the one I’m not? Yes.
Steve Hoffman: Absolutely.
Miriam Schulman: All right. So there is this app and a lot of artists have been playing with it Lensa AI. So, yeah, that’s the one. For those who aren’t sure if you’ve been on Instagram for any length of time, in the end of 2022, people were sharing all kinds of selfies with that app. To me, they all look the same. I was like, Oh, it’s another Lensa selfie even before I would read the description.
Steve Hoffman: Oh yeah, you can spot them a million miles away.
Miriam Schulman: Yes. So that’s not impressive to me. It’s like, okay. And then the other thing that I saw that was similar was Pantone for their Color of the year. So again, for those who don’t know, every year Pantone kind of does a color prediction and it’s not so much a crystal ball thing. They’re kind of looking at the zeitgeist and seeing what is starting to trend and they pick up on what’s already becoming a trend and what you’ll see more of a trend. And they said the color of 2023 is magenta. And they were doing a play on words with the magenta verse. And so you’re familiar with what it is I’m talking about. So Pantone actually used artificial intelligence to generate what they thought this magenta verse looked like. And again, it was all purple. Like I said, the purple hair, of course. And it’s all purple or purple, of course, the color is magenta. But to me, it did look very much like that same kind of Lensa, computer-generated art.
Steve Hoffman: So, yeah, and a lot of this is just trendy stuff. It’s everybody. It’s a meme, right? So people are hopping on the bandwagon. They see this tool, they’re making a picture of themselves, they’re sharing it out there. Why? Because, you know, everybody’s doing it. And a lot of people, let’s face it, there’s good art created by humans and then there’s bad art created by people. A lot of people create bad art. There’s machines the same thing. And honestly, art is, you know, if you studied art history, I know that you know, art isn’t just about what you see. Art is about what it means to society. Art is about something new. It’s about us reflecting upon society, and discovering ourselves both at an individual level and at a cultural level. So these things aren’t really art, right? They’re not really art, but they are a part of society and they are changing how we communicate. Like when people are jumping on Lensa and they’re making these pictures of themselves, even though they all start to look the same if you’ve seen enough of them. It’s still a new way of communicating, a way that we didn’t do before. And in that sense, it’s interesting in the sense of actually, is it going to be transformative art that gets you to look at the world in a different way? Probably not.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah. So I don’t find it threatening to me as an artist. And one of the things that I found particularly interesting is, is when now we talk about the other hot tool which is Openai or chat GPT, and this is an artificial intelligence tool where Google is completely freaked out about this. So like they are on red alert as they should be. So again, for people who may not know what we’re talking about, Steve does. But Steve, just so you know, I always have my listener right with us at the table. Yes. And I’m always taking care of him and her. So it’s like the multi-eyed creature who is with us. All right. So basically, if you wanted to search something on Google and I’m going to give an example, something that came up last night in my artist’s incubator coaching program. One of the artists wanted to know, where can I buy royalty-free music? Let’s ask Hal. So I call it Hal because that’s the computer 2001 space.
Steve Hoffman: Oh, absolutely.
Miriam Schulman: Right. Okay, so let’s ask Hal. So the thing is, when you go into Google and you say royalty-free music sites, it’s going to give you first a list of ads, links to their sponsored post, and then it will give you a list of sites that might mention what it is you’re looking for. But you still have to click on each thing and find out what it is and if it’s actually relevant. Okay. So when you ask the Open AI or ChatGPT, or as I’m going to say, Hal, when you ask Hal what are it’ll say, here are the six sites and some of them are subscription based. I said, Oh, thank you for that. Which ones are not subscription based? And then it tells me. So it like saves me hundreds of like whatever [inaudible] rabbit hole I would have gone down in the past. I click on all these links, it just tells me so Google is completely freaked out. They have a red alert on this because this technology is really going to hurt their business.
Steve Hoffman: So it’s interesting. So Chat GPT is based on their GPT three algorithm set and it’s been it’s a deep learning algorithm that’s been trained on a lot of data. They’re coming out with GPT4 for now. So they’re going to have a more advanced one that will blow this away. So, yes, Google should be worried. Google has its own AI. They’re working on their own thing. They haven’t released it to the public, honestly. And Google says this. I believe them, actually, because it can be abused in a lot of ways. So we are seeing that these chat algorithms, yes, they could do search. But one thing you have to recognize is I did some searches on there and it didn’t do a good job. So you pointed out one where it did a good job. There’s others where this open AI chat GPT, which is a horrible name, so hard.
Miriam Schulman: Why why is it called that? Do you know?
Steve Hoffman: GPT stands for, it’s a technical term about what they’re doing and that’s just what they – because they’re engineers. Let’s face it, they didn’t get an artist to come up with a —
Miriam Schulman: It’s like NFT. You can explain to someone what NFT stands for and it still doesn’t help.
Steve Hoffman: It doesn’t help, it won’t help you at all. It’s just a technical term, GPT.. But what the point is, I did a search and I asked “What are the top 20 venture capital firms in Silicon Valley?” I was just curious what it would say, and it said, I cannot give you this data now. I don’t know why. It just couldn’t do it. And I asked it a couple of other specific things like that, and it couldn’t give me the data. Now the data is, I think it’s roughly three years old that they trained it on, so it’s not even current, whereas Google is literally updating their database. When you do a Google search, know every day it’s being updated. So there’s a difference here. Each one of these Google is worried, but not I think the press made a bigger deal out of it than it is. Google could roll this out tomorrow if they wanted to. They could roll it out tomorrow. They’re actually concerned because and they rightly are concerned. OpenAI doesn’t care. Their policy is we’re just going to shove it out there and see what happens. Google, because they’re a bigger company and they could get a lot of pushback. They know that these tools are extremely powerful.
So you can literally get the AI to write stuff for you. You can get it to write fake news for you. Now they have policies against this and they’ll try to block it. But you can you know, human beings are smart. We’re we can figure out how to use the tool to get it to do quite dangerous things to society. So there’s a good and a bad with all technology. We’ve seen this throughout history, right? Computers, the atomic energy, everything else. There’s good and there’s bad to it. So there’s very interesting, amazing things you can do with AI right now and very dangerous things about disinformation and all this stuff. And these algorithms are biased too. They are only as good as their data. And the data they’re ingesting right now is biased, just like society is biased, right? So it has racial biases, it has biases about religion. Bias is about everything that we have biases about in society, education, wealth, status, all these different things are baked into this AI that you’re using. So the answers it’s going to give you back are answers that might not be the right answers in terms of the direction we want to take society with the use of these AI.
Now, putting that aside, these algorithms do amazing things. Not only can they answer questions like you asked, they can be pretty creative. So I asked the algorithm to write me a love poem and it wrote me a love poem. It wasn’t a great love poem, but it’s pretty amazing that the algorithm could do this. It can write a very, very short story. It can’t write it that long. Usually in a way, they’re limiting what people can do. They don’t want they don’t want people. They have limits on their own server capacities, you know, their processing power and everything. So they don’t allow you to write too much. And and the algorithms, honestly, I don’t know if they could write a long, short story, but they can write a super short story that’s really fun to read. But again, I’m not just an engineer like you. I’m a creative guy too. That’s why I went into entertainment. I went to film school for grad school. So I was trying to get it to write really good short stories. And I spent hours and hours and hours. And I will tell you all the short stories started to sound the same.
Miriam Schulman: So there’s just so many things like, I want to interrupt you so badly.
Steve Hoffman: Yeah.
Miriam Schulman: No, first of all, to bring it back to our original conversation and keep it really cohesive about the art thing. What I had learned early on about the GPT is it really can’t give you opinions. Like I think the example I read is you can like which is better hot dogs or hamburgers or it can’t do that. And when you’re asking what is art? Art changes the way good art changes the way we think. And that starts with having an opinion about something. So right.
Steve Hoffman: Art without opinions is just a pretty picture, right?
Miriam Schulman: Exactly. That’s why they all look the same with purple hair and the purple magenta verse. It’s like there’s no opinion there.
Steve Hoffman: This is where the question of can create art or can’t. It is really important because what art is, is it’s a dialogue. Art is a dialogue with society, right? It’s reflecting society. It’s saying, Hey, look at this, look at this a different way. I have an opinion. This is how I see the world. I’m challenging you to see the world in a different way. That’s what great art is throughout history. Great art. We know with the advent of modernism and everything, it’s not about how well you can paint or how well you can make a sculpture. It’s about what your sculpture is saying to society at this point in history. Do these algorithms do that? Honestly, they don’t do that right. However, we could take them and do that ourselves with them. So these. algorithms I see are great or not great, but they are very innovative and very powerful tools in the hands of artists, human beings to create a next-generation, envisioning what a next generation of art just like a paintbrush, just like a chisel. These are new tools for creating art. Just like when? Now. Cinema is art, right? But before the advent of the machine, the cameras, and the projectors and everything, we didn’t have that art form. We have a new art form with computers, right? It’s a new art form. But like you were saying, we as the artist, right? Us as an artist, it’s up to us how we use them. And then it’s also up to society, how it interprets what we create and what that means to society itself.
Miriam Schulman: Yes, absolutely. And the way I’ve been using ChatGPT, it’s kind of like taking a photograph. Like the photograph isn’t art until the photographer makes it art.
Steve Hoffman: Yes. And, you know, this is why we don’t look at a single piece of artwork from an artist, Right? If you just look at one sculpture or one painting, it doesn’t tell you whether what the artist is saying. It’s like a single frame of a movie, right? We have to look at the artist’s body of work. And these algorithms are very good at creating single, they create single things, but it’s up to us how we use them to create a body of work with these new tools that actually say what we want to say over time and change the nature of art, the nature of society, the nature of philosophy and who we think we are.
Miriam Schulman: I love that. Yeah. So one of the things that we said, it has trouble coming up with opinions also, I can’t get it to be funny.
Steve Hoffman: Yeah, Yeah. So I tried different voices.
Miriam Schulman: Like, can you even just like, tell me a joke? It was like it was really struggled.
Steve Hoffman: Like it’s [inaudible]
Miriam Schulman: A joke. It was bad.
Steve Hoffman: Oh, yeah. I asked it to tell jokes, too. And the jokes are bad. They’re not.
Miriam Schulman: That. Not even like dad jokes. I mean, it was like really?
Steve Hoffman: But all these things will get better. So there will be a point where these algorithms will make you really have belly laughs. There will be a point where these algorithms. write, actually, you know, pretty amazing poetry, because what they’re doing is what and this is what I want artists to understand, whether it’s we’re talking about ChatGPT which is all text, right? And then there’s by the same company OpenAI there’s Dall-E.
Miriam Schulman: That, I don’t know about. So tell us about that one.
Steve Hoffman: So Dall-E is really cool, especially if you’re a visual artist. So Dall-E, what it does, it generates images, and it can create paintings. It can create all sorts of cool visual images, 3D art images. And it does this by literally looking at millions and millions of images and then taking text input and combining these images in different ways to create stuff. So I asked it the other day to create me something with Einstein. I wanted a picture of Einstein and his ideas and discovery, and it came up with something pretty cool. Did it come up with exactly what I wanted? No, because, you know, there are too many possibilities out there. And just by typing in text, it’s really hard to get something exact. However, there are forums online right now where people are exchanging what they call prompts and prompts are literally the text that you input to these this AI. All of this is done by inputting text. So ChatGPT you’re inputting text even on the visual one, Dall-E, which is named after the artist Dali.
But in Dall-E, when you’re inputting text, it’s taking this text and then it’s searching through its huge database of images and combining them in different ways to give you some output. If you have specific prompts that trigger certain styles of art, certain other images that prompts that reference other artists or other images in the past, then you can get much higher quality images and images that are much more visually appealing. As well as closer to what you would imagine in your head, which is what you’re trying to get out of the machine. And I’ll add one more thing. The really interesting thing about Dall-E creating these AI-generated images is that it not only does it from text, but it can also do it from other images. So you can literally upload images and it will combine these images and create new images out of whatever you upload. So you, Miriam, could upload a bunch of digital images of your paintings and have it create a new Miriam-style painting that you could say, well, here’s an art.
Miriam Schulman: That is cool. Like I can, I can upload my, watercolor portraits and then and upload a picture of me. It’s okay now. Paint me in my own style.
Steve Hoffman: Exactly. And that’s where it gets—
Miriam Schulman: That’s cool.
Steve Hoffman: Cool. It gets cool, right? But so can anybody else who has your picture. So literally, it’s not just you, you know, who has ownership over this. We have all these intellectual properties.
Miriam Schulman: This is the elephant in the room. Is the IP question is like somebody can take my images without my permission and do that. Right?
Steve Hoffman: So then they create a totally new image, right? They create a new Miriam image in the Miriam style of art. And your watercolors look just like or close enough to one of your watercolors that the average person wouldn’t even know it wasn’t you. But do they own it? Do you own it? Does the company OpenAI own it? Is it public domain? Who owns these things? We haven’t resolved—the courts have not resolved. There is actually no answer for this. And it’s going to be very contentious because you can imagine with your own art or any of your listeners out there with their art, if somebody starts to mass produce art in their style and maybe sell it as NFTs or, you know, sell however, they want to sell it, prints of it, high-quality prints, whose intellectual property is that?
Miriam Schulman: Right? Like, make a painting in Andy Warhol style? I mean, does Andy Warhol Foundation do they get a cut if I sell it? I don’t know.
Steve Hoffman: And people are doing that right now.
Miriam Schulman: I don’t think you can copyright a style. Like if I were to go paint something in the style of without a computer, I think I’m allowed to do that. I need to discuss this with a property lawyer.
Steve Hoffman: And so this is one of the reasons Google hasn’t released this to the public, because Google has a lot more at stake to lose than a startup like OpenAI, which is just focused on doing this To OpenAI, their whole business is this. Google has a much broader business. It’s a much bigger company. So you ask, why isn’t Google doing this when they could do this? Because they have AI just as sophisticated. It’s because there are all these unresolved issues that could be quite costly and, you know, lawsuits and all these different things we don’t know yet as a society what we’ll accept. We don’t know how to define ownership of these AI-generated images that are derivatives of other images that have been uploaded and people’s faces too. Like, you can upload a person’s face and create new faces that are partially based on your own face. Like who owns that new character, right? Do you get royalties from it? I write about this in my book, The Five Forces, this technology and I go further in the book like, so I go way out into the future, like, will films be created this way? Like, you know. Actors, will they be licensing out their personalities and their faces? You know, when we design a room with a set designer who, you know, in the furniture is based on furniture designs that people did and wallpapers, who owns this? how does society treat it? Are we going to actually curb creativity by becoming too focused on the legalities of this? You know, there are benefits to both. We’ve seen and I just want to say this is a really important question that we all need to consider.
All of us could say, especially any of those who are creative and artists, and I consider myself both a technical guy, but also creative like yourself. My mom was an artist. I’m totally into the arts. Like I grew up with art. I thought I would become an artist. And I did. I made games and I did all the animations for those. So I’m really into this from the artist perspective, also into it from a technical and business perspective, kind of combining those. And we as a society, we haven’t figured out what to do with this. This technology is so powerful and so transformative that literally we’ve seen on the web that by not restricting things, by allowing people to share images on social networks and all these different ways and share content on YouTube, we allowed a creativity explosion, right? An explosion of new ways for people to create. If we curb this AI and say no, if anything derived from something else, you’re going to have to pay a royalty and we’re going to have to track it or we’re going to have to block it. Then all of a sudden all these tools will go away, like they won’t be able to exist. And really, as humanity, I don’t think we can turn our back on this technology because the technology has a lot of potential for really doing good and also taking us to a new level of discovery. Like I said, it’s a tool, right? We want people to be able to use these tools because we don’t know what amazing things will be able to create with them until we are allowed to try.
Miriam Schulman: Except I’m so worried about the children.
Steve Hoffman: The children.
Miriam Schulman: So it had caught my attention with ChatGPT because I wasn’t really paying attention to the article in the New York Times. And it was basically, I think it was the Times, it might have been The Journal, I don’t remember, but basically saying how they used it to write a paper.
Steve Hoffman: Oh, an essay. A school essay. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman: So what caught my attention, though, was not that ability. It’s like that was kind of like, okay, I get that. What impressed me, though, was that the paper was late and the journalist had said that I had written an apology letter using ChatGPT.
Steve Hoffman: Yes, you can do this, right?
Miriam Schulman: That was what had caught my attention, was like, Oh, all those weird customer service things that were always getting. And then that’s what led me. Okay, what else can I do with this? Yeah, I was just the means like it could help me with these nuance things.
Steve Hoffman: It’s insane. See, even the news you’re reading now, a lot of the news online about weather and finance especially is written by AI and you don’t know it. Like you have no idea. On services like Spotify and things like that–so they don’t have to pay royalties. They are generating music and actually putting it out there. And you may be listening to some of this that is actually I generated.
Miriam Schulman: I am listening to it. You know why? Because I subscribe to the service called Focus at Will, and it all sounds computer generated.
Steve Hoffman: Yes, because they don’t have to pay royalties.
Miriam Schulman: So there’s this and there are different modes. And one of them is the classical mode. And my daughter, who is a classically trained cellist, like she went to a conserv—like the real deal, went to a conservatory and she’s like, Well, it sounds familiar, but I can’t tell what it is. It was like, It’s artificial intelligence.
Steve Hoffman: It’s AI. So we will be seeing this in the background. You’re worried about the Children.
Miriam Schulman: So I’m worried about kids not developing the skills they need to use this properly as a tool.
Steve Hoffman: So I want to take you back in time, Miriam. You know, remember when we are kids and everybody is worried about the calculator? Like kids won’t learn math. There are calculators out there
Miriam Schulman: They don’t. And they don’t know how to spell either. And penmanship. Forget that, like in penmanship.
Steve Hoffman: But honestly, the kids will get by. You don’t have to worry about the kid. This is it. Human beings will learn what they need to learn to function and get ahead in society. The ones who are given good parenting and good education. They will learn what they need to learn and what they don’t need to learn. They don’t care. Right. And honestly, and if they need to learn it at some future time, they’ll learn it. We don’t have to worry about that. This is maybe what we have to worry about. We have more we have to worry about. It’s cheating, right? Because kids are smart. If they can get an AI to write their essay, why not, Right? Then they don’t have to write their essay, you know, to stay up late and write their essay. Who wants to write an essay if they can get an AI to get them into college, tell them what they need to put down in their application and everything they need to, they’ll do it. So everybody is going to use these tools however they can. And the smarter they are, these kids are, the more they’re going to actually use these tools. Right? The smarter kids are going to be the first ones to jump on these. Figure out how to tweak them and use them to their maximum benefit.
Miriam Schulman: Just like you and I are doing right now. Right? With all these tools.
Steve Hoffman: Yould call it cheating, but we all cheat, right? Every society uses technology and innovation, every time you make an innovation, it’s cheating, right? Because you’re doing things, not the hard way. You’re using technology to do it the short way and often do it better than people who spend a lot of time doing it the old way. So everybody is going to be cheating with this technology, but cheating is actually how we learn and grow and how we understand how business is done. Right? Every business wants to get ahead of its competitors, so they’re going to figure out how–You were in hedge funds. You know, you know, these hedge funds started using AI very early on and big data to actually cheat the stock market, get ahead of it.
Miriam Schulman: That’s why they hired me.
Steve Hoffman: Yeah, exactly. Out of MIT.
Miriam Schulman: I was in an AI lab. This is the dirty secret. So I was in like a very like this was infancy, a knowledge-based expert system. I was so bored. I was like, There’s no way this is going to help the world. Where’s the money?
Steve Hoffman: Where’s the money?
Miriam Schulman: So where are we going with that anyway? This has been such an important conversation, Steve, thank you so much for taking the time. I want to tell my listeners you want to go deeper. The Five Forces that Change Everything. It’s an excellent book. I have it. And his other books, Surviving a Startup, Make Elephants Fly, all published by three of the top-tier publishers. So he’s been vetted by the creativity gods. Alright, we’ve included links to all these places in the show notes over at Schulmanart.com/251. And don’t forget to check out The Inspiration Place over on YouTube.
Steve, do you have any last words for our listeners before we call this podcast complete?
Steve Hoffman: Yes, I just want to tell your listeners you can cheat too. You could take AI and you can start using it in your art in amazing ways to allow you to do things you never did. Don’t just dismiss it and say it’s not art, it’s just a tool. It’s up to you how you use it.
Miriam Schulman: I love that. It’s legal cheating. Yes, Yes. Unless you’re an English student in high school and it’s AP paper, then it’s not. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for being with me here today. I’ll see you at the same time, same place next week. Until then, stay inspired.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/schulmanart on Instagram @schulmanart and of course, on SchulmanArt.com.
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