THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Sara Halman: If you were ever in a dance class, I always used to have the best people in the front row, and then the second row, the third row, and they always had me going into the back row. But I just didn’t let that bother me emotionally. I just knew that this is what I wanted to do. And from that, if I’m not the best, it didn’t matter. It’s not being the best. It’s being the best that you can be.
Speaker 2: It’s the Inspiration Place podcast with artist Miriam Schulman. Welcome to the Inspiration Place Podcast, an art world insider podcast for artists by an artist where each week we go behind the scenes to uncover the perspiration and inspiration behind the art. And now your host, Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman: Well, hello, it’s Miriam Schulman, your curator of inspiration and welcome to The Inspiration Place. So this episode is in honor of Mother’s Day. Now, before we get started, I do want to just say, for those of you who, uh, grew up without a mother, for whatever reason, I know I grew up without a father or have recently lost a mother. I know this can be a tough holiday for many of you, so I just want to acknowledge you about that. My own father, if you never heard me say it passed away when I was five years old. So my mother is my main family. And I have a daughter. And so this is a special mother daughter episode. Both my mom and my daughter have both been big influences on me and important parts of my life. Recently, when I was writing the book Artpreneur, my daughter actually helped me edit the first five chapters of the book. She is an excellent writer and very insightful. I definitely think those first five chapters benefited tremendously from her input and then later, so she only did the first five because then she started her job and she started her master’s program at Columbia, so she wasn’t able to help me. And I did hire many of, you know, a book editor to help me.
Yes, it was a traditionally published book, but you don’t quite get as much hand-holding as maybe book authors have gotten in years past. Plus, it never hurts to have an additional editor, especially somebody like me, whose trade that I’ve worked on has not always been writing, so it definitely helped me to hire outside help. So I used Candace L. Davis to help me with the editing process for the rest of the book. And then what I did with my mother was, I knew if I just sent her a PDF that she might not read it. So what I did was for every chapter, I copied each chapter into an email and I would send it to her in the email. So I pasted it into the email, and I didn’t send her the next chapter until I knew that she read the previous chapter. So I sent them one at a time. And again, she gave me very useful feedback. So with my daughter, it was more detail-oriented, writing and flow, which is interesting because it makes sense because she’s a musician. She is used to the notes and how things sound, and that’s more where she focused on. Whereas my mom, who you’ll learn later, she does a lot with poetry, and she was trained as a dancer.
So for her, it’s more of the big picture and the overall metaphor and the narrative and the flow. So she was very helpful in helping me see where I might be interrupting my point by making a side story. So both of them gave me very useful feedback on the book. So for this episode, we’re not talking about my book. I recorded both of them separately, and I’m going to bring them in in a moment. For my daughter, she and I recorded over Zoom. My mom came to my apartment, and I just passed the microphone back and forth. But there were some themes that definitely emerged from both of these interviews. And “interviews” is kind of a loose way of putting this. So one theme that emerged with both of them was the concept of not needing to be a child prodigy. My daughter is a professional musician. She teaches middle school orchestra right now, and her main focus is teaching strings from elementary school all the way through high school. So she’s a professional cellist and a music teacher. But she didn’t start learning the cello until she was eight years old.
So not four, not five. My mom, she’ll tell you in her own words later on, was trained as a dancer. But again, she was never the best one, and so we’ll talk about that. I thought this was a very interesting theme to talk about was the concept of whether you need innate talent or people can have hidden potential, and it’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot. So that’s one theme that came about in both of these conversations. Another theme that came out from these conversations is not making things harder for yourself than they need to be. And then the last theme that came through both of these conversations is the theme of how each different kind of art has its own language. So most of us who listen to this podcast are visual artists. I know not everybody, but visual art has its own language. My daughter shared, music has its own language. My mom talks in the language of poetry and metaphors. So that was another theme that kind of emerged from both of these conversations, the different languages that you need in your art. All right. So we’re going to get into those conversations in just a moment. But first, these words.
All right. Now in the studio, I have my daughter, Talia Schulman. Welcome to the Inspiration Place, Talia.
Talia Schulman: Thank you.
Miriam Schulman: So let’s start off since it is the inspiration place, let’s talk about how you get inspired.
Talia Schulman: How I get inspired? As a musician, I definitely get inspired listening to other people’s recordings. I’m a cellist, so if I listen to other people’s versions of pieces that I like or a piece that I’m working on at the moment, that will inspire me to practice. But I also, like, am an amateur artist, I like to call myself. So if I feel like doing art or if I am trying to get inspiration to do art, I would get it mostly from seeing other people’s art if I’m at a museum or just looking around and seeing the pictures and then thinking of things I can do.
Miriam Schulman: Who’s your favorite musician?
Talia Schulman: Uh, that’s like asking me—
Miriam Schulman: It’s like, who’s your what’s your favorite ice cream flavor?
Talia Schulman: I was just about to say my favorite ice cream flavor. Um, favorite. I guess I have a few. One of my favorite cellists is Alisa Weilerstein because I like her sound and I like her interpretation of the more romantic works, particularly her Elgar Cello Concerto. And, um, I also like Yo-Yo Ma. You can’t go wrong because everything he’s done, he just gives it a voice. Um, but I also really like… Who is it? Shoot. There’s so many others like I… Jacqueline du Pré is one but there’s just… there’s… I can’t think of like…
Miriam Schulman: Yeah.
Talia Schulman: I can’t think of one that’s like a top. Like if I had to put them in like the third place, the fourth place, the fifth place, I’m just kind of naming off the top of my head that I admire a lot of different musicians. Those are all cellists. But yeah.
Miriam Schulman: But you do like to listen on the radio to non-classical music, right?
Talia Schulman: I do, actually. When I drive, I have a hard time listening to classical music because I find it very slow often, or even… I mean, there are some more upbeat pieces, but I feel like I need just a different genre and different vibrations when I’m on the move. I tend to listen to a lot of old-school ’80s pop, ’80s rock. I have like a favorite radio station that I just have on repeat.
Miriam Schulman: Tell us a little bit about your music teaching philosophy.
Talia Schulman: So I believe in teaching sound before sight when I teach. So I teach instrumental music primarily. I think that it’s important for students to develop a foundation on the instrument, getting them set up with the proper technique and developing good posture and playing position before really worrying about tackling the music or the literacy portion of actually reading notes and learning how to interpret that. So when I’ve worked with beginner students, I think it’s important to have them doing everything orally, at least in the first few months, before you start to teach them how to read. And by that time, they already understand the basic positions and the fundamentals of like the fingerings and how to hold the bow. So that’s when, once they are over that hump, just transferring the knowledge that they already have and connecting it with what they see. Oftentimes there’s going to be challenges for them because music is its own language and not everyone understands it right from the get-go. So I also believe it’s important to do some scaffolding, have like writing in fingerings, writing in note names. Sometimes they need it highlighted, sometimes they need it color-coded, but ultimately making it make sense to them.
Miriam Schulman: One thing that I talked about with your grandma when I interviewed her was how she wasn’t always the best person in terms of dance, but what allowed her to have a career in it is that she stuck with it and didn’t give up. So what are your thoughts about talent?
Talia Schulman: I have a lot. My opinions have evolved over time. I think that it’s great to start at a young age, but I also think that sometimes not every child is emotionally and physically ready. If they’re only 4 or 5 years old, it’s very difficult to hold a violin, let alone practice.
Miriam Schulman: Do you think the Suzuki method kind of has some built-in bias towards more wealthy families who can have the luxury of time to do something like that?
Talia Schulman: I think so, however, I think that it’s important for us as music educators to break those barriers. And I think that’s why the public school is a wonderful way for students to get their feet wet. Usually, in about third or fourth grade is when school music programs will start, including instrumental music as opposed to just having general music.
So they have students who are on free and reduced lunch. And that’s the case, like, in K to 12, there are pockets of students in that district that are on free and reduced lunch. So those students are actually eligible to use a school-owned instrument as part of their instrumental music program. As long as financially they meet the requirements for that, they are able to use their instruments and their instruments only for the duration of the year. They do have to return it at the end of the year so that it can be repaired over the summer or whatever maintenance it needs. But they’re given that opportunity just like any other kid. So that way, anyone who wants to be in the program is eligible to be in the program, regardless of the economics.
Miriam Schulman: That’s beautiful. All right. And then as a teacher, can you share a specific story about any student who they were personally fulfilled by learning music education?
Talia Schulman: Oh, God, I have a few. The one I’ll share is the one that I told you about with the student I had last year who was an eighth grader in my orchestra. She wrote me a very nice thank you note. And she told me that she had a lot of fun in orchestra that year, and that she made a lot of friends from it. And she said, “I actually was going to quit, and I forgot to tell the school to switch me out of orchestra in my schedule. And I’m so glad that I didn’t, because this year was truly unforgettable.”
Miriam Schulman: I love that. All right. Talia, since this episode is a Mother’s Day special, what is some advice that you remember me giving you in terms that has helped you with your creativity, with your inspiration?
Talia Schulman: It makes me cringe to this day, but I think the advice of picking the easy project because, for reference, in my HomeEc class in middle school, we had to sew a pillow of any design from like a design book, and I chose one that was a little more intermediate, maybe advanced, and it took me several weeks to complete it.
Miriam Schulman: And can we, like, describe it? Because I think people would enjoy it.
Talia Schulman: It was like a lava lamp. It was a lava lamp with like five pieces of felt and a fabric layout. But there were other options that were easier, like there was a smiley face that had only three pieces of felt. So you told me to like, next time you have a project, pick the easy project. So you’re still reminding me of that.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, I sometimes need to be reminded of that too. Like today when I was on with my business coach, Felicia, we had a situation where I wasn’t picking the easy project and she’s like, “Why would you want to do this when this other thing over here is so much easier and makes you just as much money?” So I was like, “Oh, I’m picking the hard part. I’m picking the lava lamp instead of the smiley face pillow.”
Talia Schulman: Yeah.
Miriam Schulman: That’s good advice. I do tell my students that, to my clients. Like, um, you don’t always get extra credit for making it harder for yourself, so you might as well pick the easy way.
Talia Schulman: Whenever I’m nervous about something, you always, like, tell me to act like if I so like when I, when I’ve been, like, in the process of applying for jobs, I think you’ve told me, like, to go into an interview acting as if I already have it.
Miriam Schulman: How do you feel about having a mother who is an artist/podcaster?
Talia Schulman: It’s almost intimidating just how many followers you have. But then I remember like, this is who you are and I’m, I’m my own person. And like, I can still be me and I don’t have to like, I don’t I’m not trying to be that, but I, I admire, like how much you put yourself out there. And I think that your audience benefits a lot from your coaching and, yeah.
Miriam Schulman: Was there any time that you wished your mother wasn’t an artist when you were growing up?
Talia Schulman: I don’t think so. I mean, I don’t really remember much else, like, I can’t, I can’t imagine you not doing this, actually, because, I mean, I don’t remember your former life, like, because I was too young to remember it, so I don’t I don’t think like I ever wanted you to be anything else. I think I mostly just appreciated the flexibility that you were always around, that you worked from home and that you were able to, like, juggle work, family life balance.
Miriam Schulman: All right. Talia. Well, I know this isn’t like the thing that you normally do, so I really appreciate you joining me here live so that my listeners can get to know you. Thanks so much for being with me here today.
Okay. I’m here with my mom, Sara Halman, and this is our Mother’s Day special. Hey, mom. Thanks so much for being here today.
Sara Halman: Oh, I’m thrilled to be here. I couldn’t think of a better way to spend my time.
Miriam Schulman: So one question I have planned for you, because this is the Inspiration Place podcast. How do you get inspired?
Sara Halman: How do I get inspired? Well, every morning when I wake up at 5:30, I do a gratitude yoga pose and I wait for the sun to rise. And that’s my quiet time. And I love that time. And it just kind of brings me together.
Miriam Schulman: Okay. And if you don’t mind saying, I probably should have started with this, if you don’t mind telling my listeners, how many years have you lived?
Sara Halman: Ah, beautiful question. I’ll be 77 in June, but when I was 62, I started a career that I am so proud of. I read poetry at Independent Living Homes in the Fort Lee library, and this was something that just came to me when I was 61 or 62.
Miriam Schulman: Okay, so you’ve been doing that every year except for during the pandemic, right? You paused during the pandemic.
Sara Halman: I even did it at some point during the pandemic. But then I decided it was not… I was too uptight doing it. It was something I shouldn’t share.
Miriam Schulman: All right. So I know exactly what this poetry is. But since my listeners don’t, can you explain where you go and what you do? I know you mentioned it was with assisted living. So w`hy don’t you just describe a typical session of what it is that you do with the residents there? Okay.
Sara Halman: Well, also, it’s a little bit of a story. It was a journey for me to get to this place. Things sometimes ideas just don’t pop in your head overnight. These are ideas that have been ruminating in my brain over the years, and I always knew there would be a someday. And one day after I saw the movie Invictus, I was sitting having tea with a cousin of mine who was a retired English teacher, and she was so excited she popped up, and for her to pop up off her seat is not an easy feat. And she printed out the poem and we began to discuss it. So a lot of seeds were beginning to plant in my head. And Miriam’s grandfather, my father, had macular degeneration when he was older, and I used to read him poetry because he had trouble seeing the written word. So a lot of these things were already seeded and coming together. And when I was ready to formulate what I do. I said to myself, let me do a theme. So I’m not just bringing poetry for them to hear, but I’ll do a theme so they can have something to grab on to. This time of year. I always do spring, which is very obvious, and the seasons. And I bring six poems to the people in an hour, and I bring copies of these poems.
Miriam Schulman: Let’s talk about aging.
Sara Halman: Okay. I’m very comfortable at this place in my life. And yes, I’m nervous about the unforeseen, but I’m doing a lot to take care of myself. And I’m very careful of what I eat. And it really is the old adage. Everything in moderation. If you want to have that little piece of cake, go ahead. But make sure that you have your chickpeas and your salad and your oatmeal every morning. And I’ve cut back on my coffee and I love my green teas.
Miriam Schulman: So one thing that, um, my audience doesn’t really know about you because I don’t talk about it, is that, so you read poetry now, but you also taught dance for many years. So you’re a very creative person. What do you think has been a lesson that you can pull from your time as a dancer that you use now, today?
Sara Halman: Oh, very easy. Discipline. Absolute discipline. This is what my take was from the years that I was a dancer. It’s not being the best. It’s being the best that you can be. And that’s a quote from Martha Graham. You’re only in competition with the person who’s inside yourself and discipline. I’m actually a very disciplined person. And a lot of my friends and sometimes my family makes fun of me for that. But I think that is the secret of aging successfully.
Miriam Schulman: I love that. Now, one of the lessons I learned from you, which I don’t know if you know that I learned this from you, is that you always used to make fun of yourself how you were like the worst in the dance class. I mean, you weren’t a child prodigy. You. But you loved it and you stuck to it. And then by the time you were 40, you were like the best one because you were the only one still doing it. Can you elaborate on that?
Sara Halman: Yes. That’s exactly what happened. People who were so much better than me just gave it up. And this was something that I loved to do. And I had to give it up at when I was 40, for financial reasons. I had to. I was a single parent. I had to support my family, and those were actually hard years for me. I missed it, but I started swimming every morning before I went to work to keep those endorphins going. And I did Israeli folk dancing once a week, and I did other things to keep the dance alive in me, because sometimes we just have to do certain things we have to do to support ourselves. And that’s always very important to. But what Miriam wants to tell you is so true. If you were ever in a dance class, I always used to have the best people in the front row, and then the second row, the third row, and they always had me going into the back row. And there were some times I was almost, almost even out of the room. But I just didn’t let that bother me emotionally. I just knew that I was this is what I wanted to do. And if I’m not the best, it didn’t matter. I’m this is what I want to do.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, there’s a lot of studies that have come out how character and grit and determination. And creativity all matter much more than innate talent. So that’s an important message for a lot of artists, especially for those in my audience who are this is their second act, or maybe even a third act in their life. So we’re all going to live many lives. Some of them are own. And I don’t mean that as reincarnation. I mean, that is you live many lives in your own lifetime. My mom is like waving her hands. Go ahead mom.
Sara Halman: All right, so I have a quote from one of my favorite poets, Stanley Kunitz, and the poem is called The Layers. “I’ve walked through many lives, some of them my own.”
Miriam Schulman: Okay, I knew that was a quote. And I asked the robots because I quoted the other night I went to my Dartmouth like reunion in New York City, and I found myself saying, “I’ve lived many lives, some of them my own.” And then I went to ChatGPT and I asked the robots, what poem is this from? And ChatGPT did not know what poem it was from, but now I remember where I read it from. It was from the Stanley Kunitz poem. I love that quote. I love that quote. It stuck with me. That’s why the work that you do with the residents is just so important.
Sara Halman: When I come to a class and all these people are new to me and I’m new to them. That is one of the first lines that I say to them. I want them to know that I’ve been vulnerable and now I’m strong and they can be strong too. And it’s a very important message. “I’ve walked through many lives, some of them my own,” that you’re always who you are, even though you’ve not always done what you’ve wanted to do. But you. But this is who you. Your integrity remains the same.
Miriam Schulman: All right, mom, thank you so much for bravely joining me on this podcast today. I wish everyone can see what you look like because my mom is so funny. She took off her glasses to talk into the microphone, but we’re not using any video. My mom looks beautiful and we’re going to go enjoy our lunch and we hope that you have a beautiful day too. So I will see you the same place, same time next week. Think of your mother today because we’re not all mothers, but we have all had a mother. So until next time, stay inspired. Bye for now.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to The Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/schulmanart, on Instagram @schulmanart and of course, on SchulmanArt.com.
Sara Halman: Oh, that was fun.
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