THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Jason Van Orden:
Hi, this is Jason Van Orden of jasonvanorden.com and you’re listening to the Inspiration Place podcast with Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman:
Woohoo. Very good, and you’re very nice Midwestern accent, like my New York voice comes next, right?
It’s the Inspiration Place podcast with artist Miriam Schulman. Welcome to the Inspiration Place podcast, an art world inside a podcast, for artists by an artist where each week we go behind the scenes to uncover the perspiration and inspiration behind the arts and now your host, Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman:
Welcome to episode zero of the Inspiration Place podcast. I’m your host Miriam Schulman and I’m thrilled that you have joined me today. Today we’re talking about what it means to have a signature style and express your voice, whether that is in business, music, or art, you’ll get a sneak preview of future episodes. With me to cohost this episode is my mentor, Jason Van Orden. Jason helps thought leaders to reach a larger audience with their ideas, create new income streams from their expertise and build business models that align their values and goals. As a consultant, trainer and strategist, he draws from more than 14 years of researching top internet influencers and experimenting with his own personal experience. His experience includes creating multiple successful brands, launching over 60 online courses, teaching more than 10,000 entrepreneurs, generating $6 million in online course sales, damn Jason, and 8 million downloads of his podcast. His mission is to help visionaries with impactful ideas to connect with the problems they can most uniquely solve. Welcome to the show, Jason.
Jason Van Orden:
Hey Miriam. Yeah, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, so here’s the plan, what I thought would be kind of interesting is kind of what your whole messaging has been, like our work together is talking about how to find like your signature voice and that is something that artists are always thinking about as well. So I just thought it’d be kind of cool to have a conversation about how artists have to find their signature voice in the same way business and thought leaders also have to find a signature voice.
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah, I love it. In fact, I have a good story to start out with that kind of sets that whole thing up.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh perfect. Okay, great. We can dig into that as well because one of my big themes of the first season, even though I’m not probably not going to do seasons, we’re probably just going to release every week, is that I’m showing people that not only is it possible to be a six figure and more artist, but it’s actually common.
Jason Van Orden:
Nice.
Miriam Schulman:
And sharing lots of people who are six and seven figure artists, professionals, and coming at it from different points of view. So I start off with like a seven figure artist, I go to my friend Blenda, Jeffrey Shaw, seven figure photographer, Corey, we talk about business models. I talked to an art gallery owner, I have Rebecca Cheng, we talk about imposter syndrome. Then it’s Instagram expert Tyler McCall, my friend Jan, who sells out every single thing she makes and she doesn’t even use an email list.
Jason Van Orden:
Jeez, wow.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s crazy. It’s crazy. And then I have a two-parter with artists, Tara Reed and her agent. So first I interview a licensed artist and then I interview the art agent who represents her. So that’s like kind of the first season. So…
Jason Van Orden:
yeah. That sounds like some solid content. I love it.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Jason Van Orden:
Well done.
Miriam Schulman:
And then I have like a whole bunch of other stuff scheduled. And these are done and a lot of them are already being edited and so I’m excited.
Jason Van Orden:
You’re killing it.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. After that false start. Now I’m…
Jason Van Orden:
Do you remember when it was like, “I want to do a podcast, but, but, but, but, but, but, but…” And now, look, it’s done almost, the first seasons almost done.
Miriam Schulman:
See, that’s I was so frustrated before was because I was like, you guys don’t understand, that’s not like me to be like, “I want to do it and it’s not happening.” You know?
Jason Van Orden:
But once you got going, man, you did it.
Miriam Schulman:
Right, exactly. This is more like the way I operate, it’s like quick start.
Jason Van Orden:
Love it. I wish I operated more like this.
Miriam Schulman:
So have you started?
Jason Van Orden:
Have I started what? Oh.
Miriam Schulman:
Recording?
Jason Van Orden:
No, I haven’t.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s okay.
Jason Van Orden:
I have reasons whether they’re good or not, I don’t know, but I have reasons.
Miriam Schulman:
So welcome Jason. So the reason I wanted to invite you to the show today is because I know you help business owners find their unique voice so that they can step out and become thought leaders in their own various niches. And I was just thinking about how similar that is to artists who really have to, once they’ve learned and master their craft, they have to develop their own signature style because you really can’t get to the next level if you’re still painting things that look like your teachers. So I was just thinking about the similarities between being an artist and the art of being a business leader.
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah, this is, I don’t have to tell you, a topic I love talking about and it kind of goes back to something I learned from Britney Spears’ vocal coach back in, I don’t know, 2003, and I was in a rock band with my wife. We were very serious about our music and we would go to conferences. I mean, just like we go to conferences now as entrepreneurs, I would go to conferences as a musician, a hopeful rock star, so to speak, and learn from the luminaries of the recording industry and what does it take? What does it take to make a living with your music and be a star or whatever? And so my wife and I were at this one particular conference and we were sitting in the audience listening and it was a vocal coach who was speaking of, I don’t remember exactly what the topic was, but this is a vocal coach to Britney Spears and Gwen Stefani and all kinds of people, even to this day, Jack Black and so forth.
Jason Van Orden:
And she started telling a story about, “Here’s what it takes.” Or more just an analogy of what it takes to really stand out and reach that point of attention and start on where you can make a healthy living from your music, your creativity, your ideas. And she said, “I’ve worked with a lot of stars and I’ve worked with a lot of really, really talented singers. I worked with talented singers who never get really seen at all. And then I’ve worked with Britney Spears, who at one point was the biggest pop star on the planet.” And so she said, “Well, I’m going to tell you what it is that set apart for these two people.” It was clearly not skill, though they all had… Obviously, you do, like you said, have to master your craft to a certain level to at least create a minimum level of quality. Right? But she said the thing that sets apart the ones that really reach a level of attention and stardom is that those people, they know what it is about themselves that is really resonant and compelling and interesting. And it’s usually not, I mean it can be stylistically and their voice, but a lot of times it’s also a lot of other things, their personality and their look and kind of how they show up, and how they talk about things. Maybe they have a point of view on stuff and they take those things about them that are the most unique and they just crank them all the way up. They turn them up to 11, which is a musician’s joke from a mockumentary called Spinal Tap.
Miriam Schulman:
I love that one.
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah, where he has the guitar amp?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah.
Jason Van Orden:
“I have to turn it up to 11.”
Miriam Schulman:
11.
Jason Van Orden:
The guy is like, “Why isn’t it just… Why is it…
Miriam Schulman:
“Why not make 10 louder. No because 11 is more.”
Jason Van Orden:
But yeah, that’s stuck with me ever since then and I started applying that not only for my music back then, but to entrepreneurship and sharing my ideas online. And that was to know, well, what is it about me that people… that there’s a unique value there that people like how I show up, my ideas, the way I think, the way I make them feel, the way I make them think or whatever it is. And whether that’s thought leadership, writing a book and teaching, coaching, consulting, whether that’s creating art, creating music, anything where you’re creating, it does come down to your voice is that thing that… it’s the thing that only you can bring to the world. But it takes some time to like find and un-layer it and kind of identify it. And then I’d say it takes even longer to learn how to really own it and embody it yourself to a level that now the world sees it and you unabashedly share it so that people just, they have no choice, at least the people who are going to resonate with you, have no choice but to take notice.
Jason Van Orden:
And I know that later in your podcast you have an interview with Rebecca Cheng talking about imposter syndrome, which is a bit of that owning your voice. I’m like, “No, this is a point of view that only I can bring because of who I am and where I come from and what my background is, what my values are, what I want to say.” Why I love this topic so much because I do believe everyone has a point of view to find,
Miriam Schulman:
And what I’ve noticed, and I don’t know if you agree with this in those different applications, but with our, a lot of it is really recognizing that what sometimes people self criticize, the things that they think are wrong are usually what makes them right and what makes them different.
Jason Van Orden:
So true. Yeah. You know what, that is so true. And that’s why… Yeah, I think that is one reason why people hesitate to own or see their voice is because for whatever reason the world often does train us to vilify this for those things and because they were threatening to people. Often those things that do set us apart are threatening because the world society wants everything to kind of be this homogenous homeostasis. And so when we start standing out it’s like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Come back down.”
Miriam Schulman:
Right. And I remember when I was first starting out, I would look at other artists who were creating similar art than me and I’d think, “Yeah, but I’m Jewish and I’m from New York and they’re these pretty blondes from the Midwest.” I’m like, “I don’t fit in.” But those are the things that when I finally embraced it and stopped trying to hide it, then I found my people and my tribe and found the people who loved that about me. Like my humor, my New York sense like that only I can bring to the table that these other people don’t have. I mean they’re great but we’re different. So it’s like being able to embrace those mistakes or things that you might be… it’s not really, mistake is the wrong word, but the things that make you different and be able to embrace that as not being wrong and hide your difference but to like you said, own it and really elevate it, that’s what people are going to be attracted to.
Jason Van Orden:
Well, I liked that you said mistakes because often we are made to think that it is a mistake or a weakness, something to be quashed and pushed out and yeah, the trick is to start seeing… And the second thing that happens is even if we do see it as something that… Let’s say that you get past some of that imposter syndrome or that you’re fortunate to not have had it really cranked up by your experiences in the past. The second thing that gets in the way is that we start thinking, “Well, they’re just commonplace.” Because it’s easy for us to show up that way, it’s easy for us to have that point of view or to do that thing, it must not have value. And the other thing that society teaches us is like, “Oh, for it to be of value, there must’ve been blood, sweat and tears and effort.” And I don’t know if that’s like a depression era or thinking that’s still passing down through baby boomers and Gen X, and maybe it’s the millennials are finally shedding that, and that’s why they’re so driven by meaning and things, I don’t know.
Jason Van Orden:
So whether we’re vilified and still see it as mistakes, weaknesses or we just devalue it because it seems easy, you got to start recognizing, “Well yeah it’s easy for you.” And then there’s a lot of like, I don’t want to say the average person because you know that makes it sound… but just like everyone else, or a lot of the majority of people, that way of thinking, that way of filtering the world, that way of curating experience, whether it’s an artist or anything else, it’s not something that easily comes to other people that way.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. And that’s something that a lot of artists struggle with, especially when it comes to pricing their art. Because when something comes easy to them, they don’t value it as much. And that was something I had talked to with one in my future episode with Jeffrey Shaw, who coaches photographers who want to switch from that back-breaking wedding photography gigs every week and suddenly they’re getting paid twice as much to do a family portrait photography shoot that feels easy. And I don’t know if they feel guilty that they’re getting paid so much for something that feels easy, but that is…
Jason Van Orden:
You know, I think that’s true. I think there is guilt because it’s easy. I think that’s true.
Miriam Schulman:
I know we were taught that if we want to make money we have to work really hard at it. So if something feels easy then we don’t value it as much.
Jason Van Orden:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Jeffrey’s is interesting because he had to really figure out because of his… Actually, I won’t spoil it because obviously you’re going to have him on the podcast. People are going to hear it, but, yeah, he’s a great example of somebody who found… And so the point I wanted to make is that he went from being a commodity, which a photographer, especially today when digital cameras are so affordable, man, to being a photographer. And when I say commodity it’s like you price shop it and people don’t value the difference between this, that and the other. But if you find a way to bring some kind of experience or just something different, again, the way you see the world, people, they’ll come back over and over again even if they do have to pay more money for that thing.
Jason Van Orden:
So one thing I would also bring up about this is that people might be hearing us talk about this and wonder like, “Well how do you even find out like what your unique genius and voice is?” And in art, I don’t know, it’s such an intangible thing. Actually, it’s an intangible thing and creating, writing books and thought leadership and things as well, one thing that I’d say that is really important is to talk to the people who do value or have had experience or opportunity to value what it is that you do and create. So in this case it might be people who have bought your art. So you need to kind of go to like get outside a little bit of that, they’re going to tell you what they think you want to hear people.
Jason Van Orden:
But have a variety of… And this is hard, right? To have a variety conversations with people about asking them, “Well why did they buy your art? Why was it? Is there something about how it made them feel? Is there something about when they first saw it is there…” And maybe they’ll just say something about, “Well the color scheme matched my decorating that I doing.” Right. And then okay, well that’s one data point, right? But then somebody else would be like, “I don’t know that giraffe that you drew and the way it looked at me and like the color, I just felt a certain way.” And then you can like dig into that like, “Oh, can you tell me more about that?” Now if that feels too personal to be like, “What is it about my art? What do you feel? Or what is it that made you…” Is you can kind of just ask them about their art buying experience in general. Think about the last time you bought a piece of art or if it was your art that they bought the last time, just think of a previous time that you bought a piece of art. Like how do you decide what you’re going to buy?
Miriam Schulman:
Here’s the thing, I just want to circle back a little bit to something you said before that I think it’s interesting. With artists, you have to master the craft, and in that process you’re really trying on different styles. So it’s very similar to music. Maybe you’re a classical guitarist, you’re going to learn other genres and you’re going to try it on. But just like the Beatles, you’re going to go through an evolution before you settle on a signature style or multiple signature styles throughout your lifetime. Now, do you see that also in business that people who are business leaders and coaches, that they go through this trying on of different styles before they settle?
Jason Van Orden:
100%. 100%. I mentioned that rock band. And if you go back about four or five rock bands before that one, I had with my wife, it was my brother and I when we were teenagers. And this is like the mid nineties grunge era. Right? And if you were to listen to that band, this was my first band and the first time I’d ever written songs in my life, it all sounded like grunge rip offs, Pearl Jam and Tool and like these other… right? But bit by bit, and I was going to school and getting a guitar degree and I would come back having learned new scale or technique or way of core changes or whatever and I would try to like incorporate that in and that started… But by the time I got to like the second or third or fourth band and like maybe the third or fourth or fifth CD recording, like you could start hearing my own like point of view coming out in the music and it’s kind of an intangible thing, but that is a necessary phase to go through.
Jason Van Orden:
And it is the same thing in business. I mean you and I, we’ve listened to podcasts that feel like a total copy of the very popular 10 business podcasts and look at them, guaranteed there’s 10 podcasts who are trying to be them. Unfortunately, trying to be the exact same thing. Now, at the same time, I try not to criticize that too much because they do need to start somewhere and imitation is a good way to start trying things on and seeing how it feels. And it’s not like somebody is going to start their first podcast or do their first song or make their first painting and immediately have a point of view.
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly. I mean if you look at the impressionists, like Degas, Degas went to Italy and copied paintings, he copied Rembrandt. So this is part of the tradition of art making is to copy from the masters, that is part of traditional art training. So, like you said, no one suddenly wakes up one day and says, “I’m going to be an impressionist and I’m inventing the impressionist movement.” All those impressionists first had to go through that journey that we all go through before we find our signature style and our own voice.
Jason Van Orden:
Somebody hearing us will say like, “Yeah, yeah, you’ve got to honor that process of developing your voice.” So if you don’t create because you have that sense that it’s derivative, it’s like, “Aw man, I don’t want to make that, that’s so derivative.” And you’re like sitting around waiting to come up with something totally unique, well you’re robbing yourself of the process. Right?
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Jason Van Orden:
And by the same token, if you’re not being honest with yourself about where you’re at, then yeah, you don’t give yourself that. But it’s absolutely an iterative process over time.
Miriam Schulman:
So what advice would you have for people who are trying to stand out in business or podcasting or…
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah, maybe the thing that I always have people… So I gave that one kind of piece of advice where I do think that it’s good to create feedback loops, is what I call them. Right? And so even if somebody has a very different kind of business model, often I’ll tell them, “Go and do some consulting.” At least a little bit of consulting, because of that direct customer relationship, there’s going to be a feedback loop there. The things they respond to, the things that they say, “Oh man, that one thing that you told me or that one… Man when you…” And really ultimately you’re going to realize that of all the things that you shared with them or did for them and did with them, there was this one thing that really just had a big impact or mindset shift or whatever, and that’s what they really valued. And often it’s not what you expected them to be paying for.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Jason Van Orden:
I mean, I’ve had people pay me a lot of money to sit down with them for a day and go and dive into their business and I’ve got this whole outline of stuff, I’m like, “Oh, I really want to deliver my money’s worth and I’m going to teach him and go through all this stuff.” And in the end, it’s like they want to spend like five or six hours just having me ask them really good questions and listened to them talk and then all of a sudden there’ll be that five minutes where it’s like, “Ooh, we just stumbled on something. Wait, say that again. Okay. Yeah, there it is. That’s the thing that we’ve been looking for today as we’ve been sitting here talking and doing things.” So create feedback loops and that’s have conversations with other artists about their art, about your art. It’s hard to do that because sometimes you’re not going to like what you hear.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, and let me just interrupt you for a minute. So like how this artists can apply this is, even though it’s a lot of work when I do these in-person art fairs and art shows, because you look at my studio behind me, you have to pack everything up, and put it in the car and then set it all up and blah blah blah. But that’s where you get the feedback…
Jason Van Orden:
Face time.
Miriam Schulman:
… is from people walking by and they’re saying things they don’t even realize you’re the artist, sometimes you’re just like their conversations. But that’s when you find out what people are responding to because if you’re just throwing your stuff on a website, you don’t know what people like until they buy it. So that doesn’t give you a good feedback loop, like you said, so should I develop a series of giraffes? Should I develop a series of elephants? And that’s how I can see what people respond to? What they’re not responding to? And they might even say, “I like that, but bigger or different color.” So, like you said, those feedback loops and they really happen in real life for artists. You get a little online, but mostly, online, you’re either going to get positive feedback or silence and silence really doesn’t tell you anything.
Jason Van Orden:
No. And usually our brain fills in the worst, so yeah. Silence.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. Yeah. And you can make up any kind of excuse, like, “Well, it’s the algorithm. That’s why nobody’s liking my picture.” Oh, but to really get feedback, you need to show your art in person to people.
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so that’s kind of the analog to me saying you got to go do some consulting, get face time, get in person with people and see what they say, see what they value.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, isn’t it the same in music? I mean you’re not going to discover your signature voice in the studio, you have to go and perform it.
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah. You got to perform and yeah, absolutely, for sure. I’m hearing us say experimentation is important.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Jason Van Orden:
And here’s the thing is like if being derivative is such a word that gets vilified, nobody wants to be derivative, but if imitating in the best possible way aspects of someone else is a part of this process, well you might as well enjoy the process. So what I’d love to tell people in businesses, well what are you curious about? What fascinates you right now? And so I suppose, and you tell me you’re the artists here, like if there’s a certain technique or a certain artist that you look up to or a certain medium or something that’s just like, “Wow, I’d be really curious to try that out and see.” Or a certain series like, “Well, what if I did make a series about such and such type of subject?” That kind of experimentation also is really important because that’s how you kind of ping pong, and I don’t want to say ping pong, but just kind of like zigzag, that’s better, zigzag your way into your own voice because ultimately your own voice is little bits and pieces that are pulled from this imitation, but then when put together the sum is greater than the parts and now it’s… Most of the songs have been written, which is not literally true, but kind of true because there’s only so many chords and music…
Miriam Schulman:
I love you, you broke my heart and there’s a great Picasso quote, I’ll probably butcher it, but it goes something like this, “Bad artists copy and great artists steal.”
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah, right.
Miriam Schulman:
And he was infamous always like taking somebody else’s idea and then doing it 10 times better.
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah. Interesting.
Miriam Schulman:
So that’s really how, it wasn’t so much that he had all these original ideas, he just would see ideas and know how to make them better and know how to put his own twist on it. And that’s a lot of what we’re talking about. Like something may have already been done, but has it been done by you? Has it been done in your way? And what can you add to that conversation? Whether it’s like we’ve been talking about music or business or art.
Jason Van Orden:
And so I think my point here, and I love that quote, I think my point here is usually when people are deciding what to imitate, they’re looking at, “Well what’s most popular? And I’ll imitate that, right?” Or like they look at the top 10 podcasts or the person that they just really love and adore and go on copy of that because it’s like, “Well that’s popular, so maybe I’ll be popular too.” And I think asking ourselves, what makes me curious? What would be interesting to me? I’m kind of turning back inwards as opposed to outwards for the clue, as that way it guides you to imitation that really is based on your own intuition. Because I think our curiosity is one way that our intuition speaks to us and so if your curiosity is pulling you in one direction, listen to that, don’t listen to the top 10 charts, don’t listen to, “Oh so and so just made seven figures.” Listen to your curiosity.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. And Picasso wasn’t copying what was most popular.
Jason Van Orden:
Right, good point.
Miriam Schulman:
He was taking like unpopular new ideas like on avant-garde ideas and then he made it popular by making it accessible or adding that little twist to it that suddenly people got what was trying to be said. So yeah.
Jason Van Orden:
Well I need to study Picasso maybe and how he discovered his voice because I like this analogy, I like this story, that’s pretty cool stuff.
Miriam Schulman:
All right, so we need to wrap up, Jason. What else would you like to share with my audience before we say goodbye?
Jason Van Orden:
Well, just that when we’re talking about your voice, it’s vital. It’s absolutely vital. I mean, whether your goal is to make a wonderful living and lots of money or whether it’s just to make great art that really impacts somebody, which I think one or the other or both of those, everybody listening to this has those goals. Right?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. And I’ll be talking this season to a lot of artists who are six and seven figure artists because one of my goals with this podcast is not just to show that it’s possible to make a good living, but it’s actually very common. So I have 10 episodes that I’m real excited to introduce some leaders in the art industry and I’m not running out anytime soon.
Jason Van Orden:
Wonderful.
Miriam Schulman:
So it’s not like there’s only four of them. So..
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah. So yeah, I’d just say take something that we’ve said today that kind of hit the mark and sounded interesting and start weaving your way to… And it’s not like you arrive at your voice and you’re done, like it’s an ongoing process. Always, I think. But yeah, it’s vital so you might as well start the process now and even if that means having a bit of vulnerability or admitting to yourself that it’s like, “okay, if I’ve got to be derivative for a little while, I might as well.” You’ll get there and then you will have the impact. You will have the residents. You will make the money.
Miriam Schulman:
Perfect. And where can people come and find you?
Jason Van Orden:
Oh, if they want to hear from me, just go to jasonvanorden.com. Jason, J-A-S-O-N-V-A-N-O-R-D-E-N.com and that’s where you can find out all about me.
Miriam Schulman:
Beautiful. So thanks so much for joining me. I really enjoyed our conversation today. A lot of fun.
Jason Van Orden:
Yeah me too, thanks Miriam. My pleasure.
Miriam Schulman:
Like what do you hear here today? We’re just getting started. I’m Miriam Schulman, founder of the Inspiration Place and I invite you to subscribe to the Inspiration Place podcasts so you don’t miss any inspiration for any of these inspiring episodes. Next week I have on pop artists, Ashley Longshore. You do not want to miss this one.
Ashley Longshore:
You know, there are moments where you don’t sell anything. There are moments where the phone isn’t ringing. There are moments when you’re not inspired, and I think that’s where we really find out who are. Those moments in between all the action.
Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/schulmanart, on Instagram @schulmanart, and of course on schulmanart.com.
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