THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Rebecca Ching:
Hi. I’m Rebecca Ching. I’m a therapist, consultant, workshop facilitator, and you are listening to The Inspiration Place with Miriam Schulman.
It’s The Inspiration Place podcast with artist Miriam Schulman. Welcome to The Inspiration Place podcast, an art world insider podcast for artists by an artist, where each week, we go behind the scenes to uncover the perspiration and inspiration behind the arts. Now, your host, Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman:
Hello. This is your host, artist Miriam Schulman, and you’re listening to episode number six of The Inspiration Place podcast. I’m so thrilled that you’re here. Today, we’re speaking with an expert in how to overcome imposter syndrome. In this episode, you’ll discover why you should focus on enough rather than abundance. You’ll also learn how to overcome a scarcity mindset and you’ll discover the six questions to ask yourself when you’re feeling and thinking negative thoughts.
Miriam Schulman:
During this interview, my guest offers a lot of questions to ask yourself, so I thought those would make fantastic journal prompts or even art journal prompts. Since a lot of you are probably listening to this in your car or at the gym, I thought it’d be really helpful for me to create a journal prompt list for you so that you can refer back to it. The best part, you can grab that journal prompt list absolutely free over at schulmanart.com/6. All my show notes, including the freebie, are at schulmanart.com/6. Check it out, because I think you’re really going to like that.
Miriam Schulman:
Let’s get right into our show. Today’s guest is a therapist, workshop facilitator, speaker, and writer based out of San Diego, California. She is committed to helping leaders navigate growth edges plus the inevitable curveballs of business and life with courage, clarity, and compassion. This guest is a certified Daring Way facilitator, which is based on Brené Brown research and protocols. She’s also a certified internal family systems therapist. Both methodologies deeply influence her lens on change, struggle, and leadership. Please, welcome to the show, Rebecca Ching. Hey, Rebecca. Thank you so much for joining me today. I’m so happy you were able to spend the time with us today.
Rebecca Ching:
I’m so thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.
Miriam Schulman:
The reason I brought you on here is because we had the conversation before for my article in Professional Artist Magazine about imposter syndrome. I feel like we just scratched the surface with that, so I really wanted to dig a little today to talk about issues, first of all, not just moments in my own life when I feel imposter syndrome creeping in because we all do, but what I’ve been struggling with lately is when my students come to me and I know they’re experiencing it and I don’t just want to say to them, “Oh, you just have imposter syndrome.” I’m struggling with how to help them when they come to me saying that they don’t feel that they are as good as the other students in the class.
Rebecca Ching:
Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, yeah. It is such a common experience, it’s almost universal. If anyone’s daring to put any of themselves out in the world, it is a universal experience, I’m finding.
Miriam Schulman:
What I see happen specifically is I’ll get students write to me and they’ll say, “Everyone else in the class is a professional artist,” isn’t true. They’re afraid to even post their art. These emails are coming to me from students whose art I’ve seen and their art is as good as everybody else who is in the class. I don’t know what to say to them.
Rebecca Ching:
Hmm, yeah, because you can’t just go, “Oh, your work really is good.” You can’t. It’s like… Or, “Oh, this is just comparison, so stop it,” right?
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly, which is what I do.
Rebecca Ching:
Well-
Miriam Schulman:
Seriously, “Oh, you’re just comparing yourself.”
Rebecca Ching:
… Right, and we’re naming it, but what I have found really helpful when I hear that come up, whether it’s with clients at my mental health practice or I’m working with leaders who are rumbling with this, I really start to have them get curious. It’s like, “Tell me more about really what you’re afraid of. Tell me more. Really, what are you afraid of people seeing and what are you afraid of happening if people see that?” Depending on the dynamic of your relationship with someone in that conversation or if you have the bandwidth or time, I really encourage that, what I call the “you-turn,” the Y-O-U turn when I notice these overwhelming, like the phenomenon of imposter, the imposter phenomenon hijacking my sense of calm, clarity, and confidence. I’ve learned that I do that you-turn and I notice, “Okay, that means I’m hitting a growth edge. There’s something going on that my system, my internal system is saying “This is not safe,” and I get curious about it. Instead of seeing it as what’s commonly called as “resistance,” I’m more, I just get compassionate knowing that my system is trying to protect me from some perceived threat, even though it may not be a universal truth to what I believe. There’s a part of me that’s afraid that if I’m seen as a copycat or not as good as other people or a wannabe or a hustler or whatever the language may be, I’ll lose friends, I’ll lose reputation, I’ll lose relationships, I’ll lose my dignity, I’ll lose respect, and starting to name that. Then I often just say, “Tell me more about me about that. Where do you feel it in your body?” That’s really a beautiful thing to just connect this experiences of getting out of our heads because we try and think through a lot of our struggles, especially reoccurring ones. Sometimes, when we’re just in that thinking part of ourselves, I don’t know, I suspect this is true for you, Miriam, but for me, I work with people and what I call the “curse of the smartypants brain,” like really intelligent multi-talented individuals, really cool people. There’s almost this element, too, with that depth and deep and multidimensional capacity, there’s even more vulnerability.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. I just want to back up because there’s something you said there that was really interesting. You talked about not feeling safe.
Rebecca Ching:
Mm-hmm.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, there’s two things that are going through my head. First was like, “I don’t want to be their therapist and actually ask those deep, probing questions,” but the other thing I was thinking was, “Are there things I could do to create a safer environment where they don’t feel if they’re sharing their art there that they are up for being evaluated or being compared? Or are there things that I could be doing differently?”
Rebecca Ching:
Okay, two answers. First, I would say that’s not a deep, probing therapy-perspective question. I mean, it could be depending on the person, but encouraging them even if they don’t have to tell you, just to say, “Go get curious about what you’re really afraid of being seen as,” and Post-it Note it or bullet-point journal it. Just look at it, externalize it, download it. You don’t necessarily have to be the one that absorbs all that. I respect that boundary. Here’s the other thing, Miriam, this is the buzzkill: I don’t think there’s such a thing as that world that you want where it’s totally safe, where it’s safe to not feel those things. I think that’s a myth. We set ourselves our expectations up and we’re setting ourselves up for more frustration and feeling of failure. It really is about the people that can tolerate the vulnerability. Brené Brown defines vulnerability as “risk, uncertainty, and emotional exposure,” which are all dangerous to our brains. It’s like, “Yes, I’d like to feel risk. How about some emotional exposure to go?” No. What her research has found is that if we can tolerate that space and build resilience for that space, then comes the creativity and the innovation.
Rebecca Ching:
I’m yet to find someone who is putting themselves out there, whether it’s in their art and their profession, in relationships, whatever it may be, that doesn’t feel that. If you’re not feeling that, then you’re not doing something that’s so true and pure to you. I think it’s like I almost say “Welcome,” when I hear this, “Welcome. You’re not alone.” There’s a common humanity and this is, it’s almost like the baptism of it. Instead of fighting it, just to get curious about it. Instead of letting this struggle be a part of your identity and your worthiness, as part of the beauty and part of the journey of making great art, whatever that may be.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, what I’m hearing from you is that part of the creative process definitely involves risk no matter what and the only way somebody’s going to feel a hundred percent safe is never showing it, which is not what I’m encouraging people to do, not really. That you’re going to feel vulnerable anytime you share your art, is that what you’re seeing?
Rebecca Ching:
Yeah. I mean, think about it. Anytime you share something personal that you’ve invested in, we’re opening up to the critics. We can’t get rid of the critics. It is like a phenomenon that is imbed in our culture and then we’ve got the critics between our ears, so we have it in stereo, right? We have the parts of us that want to keep us small and they’re doing that out of trying to protect us, I believe to keep us safe, but they get beat up for just trying to protect us because they’re trying to keep us small and they’re being critical for saying, “Who do you think you are?” Then you’ve got-
Miriam Schulman:
How much does that inner critic play into imposter syndrome? Is it one leads to the other or …?
Rebecca Ching:
Oh, I think they’re just like a little pod of best friends. Again, I shifted my mindset around these parts of me as protective instead of trying to get rid of them because what I’m learning about who we are and how we’re created, we’ve got this beautiful internal system of multiplicity that these parts of us just have our best intentions to protect us, even though their means of protecting are not helpful. That, and building relationships with these parts is really… Again, it sounds a little bit of, it’s a doozy, but to go, “Huh,” and feeling that charge of “Who do you think you are?” just came up. Oh, I felt it in my stomach. It grounds me and it helps me approach it from if I am trying to make a change with trying to shame something out of me or blame or judge it, I’m only going to make it worse. I mean, it doesn’t work with other relationships. It leads to maybe minimal change but not sustained change. When you’re making your art, and we live in a world that is ruthless at times, that’s why it’s essential to get really, really clear on whose opinion matters. If it’s on more than one hand, it’s too much. Even filling up a hand is too much.
Rebecca Ching:
For me, it’s like I have a dial, a one to nine dial of who matters. It doesn’t mean that someone I don’t know or I’m not an artist by profession, but someone who I know that’s also creative that doesn’t have skin in the game of doing their own work and really rumbling with that’s going to critique me, it doesn’t sting. The other key point is to really get clear on extricating our worthiness from our work. That is fundamental. There’s nothing like vulnerability and experiencing the risk of being misunderstood, of being shot down, of being critiqued unfairly or fairly.
Rebecca Ching:
The other part is getting curious about how you had received criticism in the past. Most of us haven’t had experiences where it’s done well. You are providing a space and a culture where to say, “Hey, tell me more about this. Can I get some feedback?” People can build resilience when there’s a culture of feedback where their worthiness as a human isn’t on the table for negotiation versus “I’m not connecting with this piece,” or, “I would do…” You say the art terms, artsy terms, but it’s not “You suck,” or even, “This sucks.” That is the constant work. The people that I know that are doing incredibly creative and innovative things are constantly doing these you-turns, constantly being radically clear on whose opinion matters. They don’t go to the place of, “I don’t care at all when anyone thinks,” because that’s the other side of the coin if I care what everyone thinks and they both are bad, it’s…
Miriam Schulman:
That’s being a sociopath, if you don’t care.
Rebecca Ching:
Exactly. It’s not effective. Then we just armor up and protector up and we’re not then and then the good stuff doesn’t get out or in, so practicing… These are the terms we’re hearing so much now, the “Where is gratitude in the moment?” Checking and being clear, “Where is my worthiness? What am I afraid of being seen as?” Just getting curious about that. Even if you don’t have to fix it, which I don’t believe in, it’s just noticing and then feeling the vulnerability because there’s also that place, if you can hold the space of risk and uncertainty and emotional exposure, it’s so uncomfortable and it’s also where you feel so alive. It’s very different than shame or blame or judgment, but yes, when you have your inner critics or the experience of you feeling like an imposter show up, that is data that you’re onto something big. Instead of an identity piece or to go hunker down, that is more the data of I’m on a growth edge here and I need to rally my people.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, when a student says to me, “I feel like everyone else is a professional artist and you’re in your Facebook group,” is not true, FYI, it’s not true at all, but what they’re really seeing is that’s expressing an inner desire that they have to be at that level?
Rebecca Ching:
I guess I see as two-fold. Someone saying, “Everyone else here is a professional artist,” so it’s not 100% true. The reality is a part of them is feeling that. Even start to language, “Man, a part of me feels like a fraud in this community, like everyone’s way more experienced.” Naming that is really more than half the battle. Not saying “I do, I feel,” then it becomes your identity, but “A part of me,” identifying there’s a part that’s scared of being judged or misunderstood or left out or not getting it or not having the right language. That is scary.
Rebecca Ching:
There’s boundaries, too. Your job isn’t to change out, it’s just more to fix that because sitting with that day in and day out, I mean, scarcity is rampant, right? I mean, there’s just the not enough, not doing enough, you’re not enough, there’s not enough. The scarcity mindset piece is huge. I want to just jump in here on this, too, because what I read… I’m quoting Brené, I’m a certified Daring Way facilitator for Brené’s work, so it’s so just a part of how I think and feel these days, but when I read Daring Greatly, a chapter on scarcity, that book is full of truth bumps, but she talked about the opposite of scarcity isn’t abundance, it’s enough. It’s enough.
Rebecca Ching:
That blew my mind because there’s so much about abundance mindset and prosperity and manifesting. I see people just spin out because they feel like they’re not doing abundance or manifesting right, but if you see scarcity show up, then you know that you have an enough issue, an enough issue to get curious about. That’s really the data. Instead of swimming in scarcity, impostor, and the critics, they’re your data. You know when get that scratchy throat and you’re like, “Oh, no, I’m starting to come down with something, got to slow down, drink the tea”? That’s how I see those things for me. I got to go to do the you-turn and go, “Okay, what’s going on? Where has my worthiness, my enoughness gotten connected to this?” Then that’s my work, not about trying to get rid of that. They’re the warning signs, they’re the scratchy throats or the stuffy noses, per se.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. If I were to then, when I get these emails, and Rebecca, I get these emails a lot-
Rebecca Ching:
I bet.
Miriam Schulman:
… That’s what I’m saying. I see most of them are pretty much the same level, so when they come to me with these emails, if I were to bullet three questions that I should turn around and ask them, can you put that into …?
Rebecca Ching:
Absolutely. I was just conjuring it up in my brain. I would say move from “I am” to “a part of me” when you’re feeling impostor, critics, scarcity show up, so “Part of me is feeling this.” I would get curious about what the fear is. What is the fear of being seen or fear, what’s the fear? Really, from a place of not trying to change it or judge it, a genuine without knowing where you want to go, just like, “Huh?” Ask where you’re feeling it in your body because because then that grounds you. Not everyone’s able to do that, that’s fine, but just reconnect. Then you ask how you’re feeling towards it, how you’re feeling towards that part of you holding the fear. All of a sudden, now you’re off trying to spin off and getting it out and you’re building a relationship, you’re connecting with this part of you.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, so the three questions are: What are you afraid of? Where are you feeling that in your body?
Rebecca Ching:
And how are you feeling towards it?
Miriam Schulman:
And how are you feeling towards that feeling?
Rebecca Ching:
Mm-hmm.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s like a little bit abstract. Okay, those were the three things that I can turn around and say to someone, not so much that I would even have an answer for whatever they say back to me, but just to get them thinking along on those lines?
Rebecca Ching:
Yes. I would add one more. How are you armoring up or protecting from feeling that fear? Is that helping or hurting? Maybe I added some more.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s five questions.
Rebecca Ching:
Out of five. Yeah, this is stuff for people to work out on their own and just to get curious about if it becomes a practice, because if you’re going to put yourself out there, you’re going to feel the critics, you’re going to feel the imposter experience, you’re going to feel vulnerable, you’re going to feel ugh, but there’s going to be feelings of not being safe.
Rebecca Ching:
I feel like the more that you do big stuff for you, the more it’s going to be important to get clear on who are the one or two people in your life. That can’t always be you, but you facilitate them. Getting curious about that. Who are your go-to people and how can you be that person for yourself, too? Because sometimes, this work is really lonely. Sometimes, it’s really like people are getting into something, creating things and into their zone. It’s hard to put that to word.
Miriam Schulman:
I think it gets harder. The better you get, the more there’s at stake. There’s one thing to be sharing your art into a Facebook group when you’re not a professional and people aren’t judging you as a professional. It’s quite another thing, then, to be posting on Instagram or on Facebook when you are the professional and you’re supposed to be the professional. I find with myself and my friends that we’re like, “Oh, I only got 200 likes on that Instagram picture, that painting must suck.” There’s a lot more at stake when you… I don’t know that you necessarily reach that level of, of safeness when it comes to your work. I mean, I know you’re not a painter, but don’t you feel like with your other work, with your writing or-
Rebecca Ching:
Totally.
Miriam Schulman:
… when you speak, that you have these issues as well, that the higher you get, the more you have at stake?
Rebecca Ching:
Unpack that for me: What’s at stake? What’s more at stake when you’re seen as a professional artist versus not? Help me understand that.
Miriam Schulman:
Mm, that’s a good question. You’re more invisible and you feel that you have a reputation now that you have to live up to, that it’s a question of, yeah.
Rebecca Ching:
Yeah, because what’s more at stake is you’re going to invite more critics. You’re going to invite the external. Before, it was just you, between-the-ear critics, and maybe a few little people in your circle of influence. When you become more known, you’re inviting more good, you’re inviting more recognition, you’re helping build a business, you’re contributing, so there’s a beauty in that. You’re inviting more critics who actually can know you and go, “Oh, Miriam. Oh, my gosh. Have you seen what she does? She calls herself an artist. I don’t know why people spend money on that,” whatever ludicrous thing they say. By the way, I don’t believe that at all, just giving an example.
Miriam Schulman:
No, but by the way, when you do get bigger, you do have the one or two people who will speak out and try to bring you down. That’s the problem. You don’t just have the people telling you between your ears, you actually do have the trolls on the Internet who will say mean things.
Rebecca Ching:
Yep, and they’re not going anywhere.
Miriam Schulman:
No.
Rebecca Ching:
Where the stakes are higher, you need to get radically clear on your boundaries with what’s okay and what’s not okay. The other piece is getting curious about any trust issues, self-trust issues you have inhalant and doing the work to build something. “Do I believe I’m doing my best?” Again, art, “Is something ever finished?” All these questions, I hear from those that they live their life through their art and their creativity.
Rebecca Ching:
Again, the key is my worthiness. Has it slipped down there? I feel like it’s like a recalibration constantly. If I’m starting to feel like this is dangerous, you’re putting yourself out there and the next level to the point where I’m feeling terror, there’s an element where I know now, “Okay, where did my worthiness sneak into this?” Doesn’t mean I’m not going to feel the risk, uncertainty, and emotional exposure of vulnerability, but who I am, my worthiness, to have joy, to have success, to have love and belonging, to have meaning and make meaning, that’s not on the table for negotiation.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. I just want to circle back to something you said in the beginning. For me, at least, I’m pretty good about not letting those trolls define my worth. You know how you talked about there are certain people whose opinions matter?
Rebecca Ching:
Mm-hmm.
Miriam Schulman:
Right? Did I get that right?
Rebecca Ching:
Yeah, yeah.
Miriam Schulman:
The trolls’ opinions don’t matter to me. I’ve taken that off. I know they’re going to show up and that’s what’s going to happen occasionally. That, I’m okay with. What I’ve also found that’s interesting is that I will actually, when I go to an art class, I don’t like people to know me. When they go around the room and introduce themselves, I’ll never say “I’m a professional artist, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” because now I’m suddenly setting myself up for vulnerability. I prefer to be able to be in the place where I’m a student like everybody else-
Rebecca Ching:
Hmm. I get that.
Miriam Schulman:
… with the permission to fail and be okay with that.
Rebecca Ching:
Okay. So much there. Oh, gosh. Okay, I get that with my therapist hat. I don’t like to share that. So many people have different reactions, but what I found for me-
Miriam Schulman:
You mean when you’re social? When you’re going out socially, like you’re going out?
Rebecca Ching:
… Yeah, yeah. “What do you do? What do you specialize in?” “I help people with shame and perfection and trauma issues.” They’re like, “Oh, okay. See you,” versus if I talk about, “Oh, I help people with overwhelm or feeling anxious or perfectionism,” that’s more palatable sometimes. I’ve learned the circles.
Rebecca Ching:
Here’s the thing: If the way that you protect is by shrinking, that’s feeling the inner and outer critics.
Miriam Schulman:
Ah, you’re right.
Rebecca Ching:
For you to take up space as a professional artist, that’s essential and that courage is contagious. Your community needs you to take up space and model that.
Miriam Schulman:
You’re right.
Rebecca Ching:
Claim it.
Miriam Schulman:
You’re right.
Rebecca Ching:
Yeah, there’s something else you said. Hopefully, I’ll jog it because you were dropping the bombs there.
Miriam Schulman:
I did, I did.
Rebecca Ching:
Some days, it’s nice to operate without the expectations, but then that’s a part of me that’s like “Stay quiet, stay low, stay below the radar,” but that’s me trying to stay small and not take up space. Sometimes, there’s a time and space for that. I get it. I get it. When people find out your profession, sometimes they, it’s just sometimes interesting, so then there’s a boundary piece, but we have to take up space, and it’s… I don’t know if this is a male/female thing, I know for women in particular, we’re taught not to take up space. There’s also something, I have artists in my family, and I’ve seen just what it means to be an artist. Sometimes it’s like, “Oh, that’s not good enough or creative enough,” too. I feel like claiming professional artist is vulnerable, but that’s actually a courageous act that needs to be done.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. I have no problem saying I’m a professional artist when I meet people, it was simply in those situations, but…
Rebecca Ching:
No, it makes sense, though. I felt that… Oh, I remember what else you said. Here’s the thing about the trolls, here’s the thing about trolls: In theory, right, I can say, “I know whose opinion matters.” I go, “My husband, I have a couple of colleagues, a couple mentors,” and that’s generous. They’re the ones that see all of me unfiltered and still love me regardless.
Rebecca Ching:
Here’s where the trolls get all of us, though. We can say “I don’t care because you’re not in the inner circle,” but if they say something, accuse, judge, critical, whatever their thing may be that taps into a core shame, part of my shame story, I’m down. That’s just how it goes. There’s some things I’m very tender about, especially if I’m attacked around integrity or my parenting or my faith or my professionalism. Those are things I care a lot about and that can still take me down because they’re just super vulnerable or there’s still stuff I’m rumbling through in my own story, so-
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. Well, that happened to me recently.
Rebecca Ching:
… Did it?
Miriam Schulman:
Not with art, but I was in synagogue and this 95-year-old guy came up to me and asked me when I was due. It’s not funny. I lost it.
Rebecca Ching:
I’m not laughing. No, I’m laughing. It was almost like, “Really? Ugh.”
Miriam Schulman:
I was just like… That took me days. I was spinning for days Then what also upset me was not just that he said it, but other people’s response.
Rebecca Ching:
Oh, what did they say?
Miriam Schulman:
Awful, like, “Oh, that was so rude,” not, “You don’t look pregnant.” It was like, “Wait a minute. Do you agree? Do I actually look pregnant? What are you saying?” The response I wanted was, “That was a stupid thing to say,” “He can’t see right,” or, “I don’t know what he was thinking,” or… I don’t know, but that was not… It got worse.
Rebecca Ching:
The responses felt like they were agreeing with him, but still, I mean, it wasn’t cool to say, but, ugh.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes, exactly.
Rebecca Ching:
Then it was just compounding. Oh, jeez.
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly, exactly. I was thinking it, too. Then somebody said, “Oh, it’s just because of your dress.”
Rebecca Ching:
Here’s the connection. I’ve heard from people I know who are professional artists. They parallel talking about their art like talking about someone’s body. It’s that personal. If to critique something, just to say, “Oh, when are you due?” things you never say, right, especially to a woman, things you don’t… You just don’t comment. We have a culture that does that. I feel like what I’ve learned from my professional artist friends and even those that aren’t professional, but that’s a big part of their life, when there’s a judgment or criticism about it and how people respond, it’s almost permission to talk about something so personal as your body. It goes for the jugular.
Rebecca Ching:
To say, yeah, this gentleman at your synagogue, he’s not a super, super close friend or… He went to something deeply personal and to feel so misunderstood and not seen correctly in your body, I mean, that’s just ground zero. I mean, it’s the number one shame trigger for women for sure and for a lot of. Yeah, I feel like, too, is how we even respond when we see someone in that storm. Sometimes it’s just “With you, sister. That sucked.” What is helpful to you right now? If you have one year students in a facedown moment, ask him, “What’s helpful right now? What would be supportive to you right now?”
Miriam Schulman:
That would be question number six, Rebecca.
Rebecca Ching:
Yeah. Yeah, again, I want to say my laughter was more of ridiculousness because I hear this so often that I sometimes just… It’s just I’m over the body-shaming. It’s not going anywhere, either, but that the personal nature of our bodies and of art that’s created, I see a really powerful parallel there.
Miriam Schulman:
We’re talking about the whole idea of playing small and I hadn’t thought about this before when you said, “Well, you sure you want to be doing that?” I realized I did learn that from my mother. She was a professional dancer and yet when she would go to a Pilates class or whatever the class was, she never wanted to let people know that she was a dancer. She would go in the back and pretend like she didn’t know what she was doing. I learned that from her, playing small.
Rebecca Ching:
Yeah, the messages we get if we’re confident and courageous and putting ourself out there is a lot of mixed stuff. There’s a lot of people rumbling with their own worthiness, so sometimes the way they offload their pain is to try and keep us small, too. We learn, “Let’s just dodge that bullet and just, we’ll beat them and we’ll stay small, too.” Again, I’m not talking about humility, I’m not talking about time and place stuff. It’s just, it is an overall mindset, though, that if I claim professional artist, part of me is going to be self-conscious of who’s judging me and just to start to get curious about that. That’s the work. That’s the work to get: What is this connected to? What is this about? What are the fears? What are the concerns if we don’t stay small? That’s the journey. That’s the trailhead to some beautiful ahas and probably some more beautiful art, I would suspect. The confidence, too.
Miriam Schulman:
Right, to make better art, you have to be willing to fail and experiment and do something that might not work out.
Rebecca Ching:
You can’t not fail. I don’t know where we got that message. Failure’s how we learn. It stings terribly sometimes and I need to convalesce sometimes for ages after a failure and sometimes I just need to put a figurative Band-Aid on it and rest. Failure is not if, it’s always when. It’s always that way. My perfectionism jacked up that mindset for so long.
Rebecca Ching:
There’s not a big group of people going, “Yay, you failed. What were your key learnings?” I mean, it’s still crickets outside of certain professional circles of mine. It circles back to where is my worthiness and what are the things that matter most. What are the core values of your artists in your community? Why do they do what they do? If they’re staying small and that’s counter to their core values, they’re going to feel the dissonance in things. It will be harder to manage both the inner critics and the outer critics. If I know I’m entering into a jungle of critics, but I’m doing so because it’s guided by what matters most, that is energizing. It’s still terrifying, but that has meaning and purpose.
Miriam Schulman:
Rebecca, do you feel you have to manage the inner critic before you manage the outer critic? Is there like …? Or the order doesn’t matter?
Rebecca Ching:
Well, you can’t control the outer, so you have no control. You have agency-
Miriam Schulman:
No, but of your feelings around.
Rebecca Ching:
… Oh, I see.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, is it more important to start managing how you feel about yourself in order to start managing how you feel about other people’s opinions about you?
Rebecca Ching:
I mean, a ground zero is ourselves always, but it’s like a little popcorn party with the potential threat of an outer critic that will light up your inner critic. Just, the physics of all that can get lit up, but again, seeing that as data to getting curious about fears and meaning and where is that aligned to why you’re doing what you’re doing, that gets you out of the dance of trying to avoid it because it’s impossible.
Rebecca Ching:
The reality is we can see ourselves as successes and so else would call it a failure and vice versa. I mean, you were just naming that about some of your students where you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, your work is amazing,” but they see it as not good enough for them.
Rebecca Ching:
That’s so personal for each person. For me, again, it’s checking my worthiness and checking the hustling and checking the staying small. I think because we have the most agency over dealing with what’s in us, that’s always a beautiful and best place to start. Then for me now, too, my bandwidth to bring around the noise is nearly non-existent. I literally start to feel sick if I’m in a situation that just feels so out of integrity or so toxic. I don’t have the bandwidth to numb out from that anymore, so I’m pretty picky about who I surround myself with or what I put in my brain, what news I consume or things I do. I can tell them I’m not honoring that. Garbage in is garbage out.
Rebecca Ching:
Yeah, I would say it’s not like if you do this then, but we have the most power and the most agency to do our own you-turns and get curious and collect the data, what we’re learning in our own system and about our own story. The beauty, then, too, is this helps me when I see people discharging pain to me or to others I care about, I’m actually able to get to the place where I can have compassion for those, because I’m like, “Wow. For someone to say or do that, they must be in a lot of pain.”
Rebecca Ching:
It’s still fricking not okay and I don’t want to be a thousand miles near them, but then it’s better for my heart if I’m operating from a place of compassion for someone who’s really in a dark place to do or say things that are harsh, then it’s better for my soul and how I show up to people who matter to me. Then they don’t have the hold on me, either, if I’m able to go… Then the times where it’s hard to extricate the hold is when it’s hooked into something that’s a part of my shame story or something that’s part of my temper story and that just ushers me into my own, just more personal development or personal reflection work. It never ends because we’re dynamic beings and there’s no one like artists that are fully engaged in that and in touch with that. I admire that about creative communities that really cultivate, just wearing that out there and connecting with that, but we’re in a world that can be really dangerous.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. This was super valuable, Rebecca. Well, let me just ask you, is these are one last thing you want to share with my audience before we say goodbye?
Rebecca Ching:
Oh, gosh. Stay curious about your pain. That’s where you’re going to make your greatest art. Be very clear about what’s okay and not okay and do whatever you can to repair, build, and maintain trust with yourself. Listen. There’s such great wisdom in you and the world needs what you have to make.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s so beautiful. Where can people go to find you to learn more?
Rebecca Ching:
Thank you. Instagram is where I’m at. @Rebeccachingmft in Instagram. You can also find me at rebeccaching.com. I’m in the process of redoing the site and adding some really fun opportunities to learn more about a couple of methodologies, internal family systems where a lot of this lingo about parts and you-turns comes from and also opportunity to do workshops based on Brené Brown’s research. You can check out there, but Instagram is probably the best place to find me right now.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, I’m going to make sure that links to all those places are in my show notes.
Rebecca Ching:
Thank you.
Miriam Schulman:
Thank you Rebecca so much for spending this time with me. I definitely learned a lot and I hope that everyone listening to this well.
Rebecca Ching:
Thank you so much for having me and thanks for all that you’re doing, too.
Miriam Schulman:
All right, thanks Rebecca. Take care.
Miriam Schulman:
Now, don’t forget, I’ve created a custom list of journal prompts based on this episode to help you use what we’ve talked about today to overcome imposter syndrome. Visit schulmanart.com/6 to grab it now. It’s totally free. If you liked today’s episode, I would love to hear from you. Send me a message over on Instagram. My handle there is @schulmanart or email me at miriam@schulmanart.com. Bye for now.
Thank you for this thing to The Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/schulmanart on Instagram @schulmanart and, of course, on schulmanart.com.
Miriam Schulman:
Next week, on The Place podcast:
Tyler J McCall:
It really depends on kind of your audience and your main objective with your Instagram account, but I’m at a place now where I’m telling most of my students that posting every day is too often to post on Instagram.
Miriam Schulman:
If you want to hear how many times is the ideal posting for Instagram and lots more Instagram tips, tune in next time to The Inspiration Place podcast, same time, same place, and to make sure you don’t miss an episode, please subscribe to The Inspiration Place wherever you listen. Bye for now.
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