THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Miriam Schulman:
Well hello, this is your host, artist, Miriam Schulman, and you’re listening to episode number 33 of the Inspiration Place Podcast. I am so thrilled that you’re here. Today, I’ve invited a money mindset expert, because we all need to work on kicking the starving artist mentality. In this episode, you’ll discover why you should never crowd source your prices, why you should never barter. In other words, don’t trade your art for services. Also, how pricing your art too cheaply can backfire. Today’s guest is the money mindset mentor for the new wave of online female entrepreneurs. Her bestselling books, Lucky Bitch, Get Rich Lucky Bitch, and her brand new book Chillpreneur, give a fresh and funny roadmap to creating an outrageously successful life and business.
I definitely recommend you get the audible versions, because she is hilarious. She helps women release their fear of money, set premium prices for their services, and take back control over their finances. She also is an award winning speaker, author and entrepreneur who helps women transform their economy class money mindset into a first class life. Please welcome to the Inspiration Place, Denise Duffield-Thomas. Hey, Denise. Welcome to the show.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Hi, Miriam. That felt like an Oscar tribute. That was amazing, thank you. What a beautiful introduction.
Miriam Schulman:
Everyone can see you’re wearing your Oscar gown too. I wanted to ask you that. Do you watch that where you are?
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
I am so into the Oscars. I’ve watched as long as I can remember. I used to live in London, and I had to stay awake all night. It started at 1:00 AM in the UK. In Australia, it’s the best. It’s starts at midday.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s so nice.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Yes, so we watch it. I hire out a cinema. This year I hired a Gold Class Cinema with all the fancy lounges, for my friends and family to come and watch. And then it finishes about 3:30.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s perfect. That’s a reason to go to Australia next year during the Oscars. I have to stay up until… Well, I only stay up until 10:00, because it’s past my bedtime. I just stayed up to watch Bradley Cooper, and then…
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
My God, it was so amazing. But actually what I loved too, which is probably a good place to start for our talk is Lady Gaga’s speech, where she said, “I’ve been working hard for a really long time.” As she said that, I was thinking, “Oh my God, she has done tiny little shows with nobody there.” A friend of mine told me she saw her as the opening act for the Pussycat Dolls years and years ago.
Miriam Schulman:
Really?
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Yeah. It’s one of those things, to be successful as a creative, as an artist, as an entrepreneur, it is a series of being consistent, being true to your vision, and just believing in yourself is the most important thing, before anyone else believes in you, before anyone else pays you for your art.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
You have to show up. And I just think she has done her 10,000 hours of being an artist.
Miriam Schulman:
For real. And we weren’t going to get into this, but then the whole idea of creating that alter ego, and donning a whole persona, that probably helped her create that confidence for herself. Because a lot of us, when we reach a certain stage, even before we get to a certain stage, you have that imposter syndrome. Who am I to do whatever? It makes it so much easier when you have this alter ego, or this person, like Lady Gaga, because that’s not her real name, obviously. She’s just from a small town right near me actually. A very small, not a rich town, Yonkers.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Even though where Brad Pitt is from, I know he’s from somewhere else. But here’s the thing about the persona thing, I think it was Steven Pressfield in his book. He said that Madonna had said, “Madonna works for me.”
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And I feel the same way about lucky bitch Denise. I think, “Well, she works for me.” Even though I’m authentic in everything that I do, it’s still a business for me in lots of ways.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Where I’m like, “I’m Denise, myself, the mom of three kids, and wife of Mark.” Then there’s a bit more, sometimes, polished version of myself that is my lucky bitch Denise. And it actually does help me to think, “Well, of course I would charge her out, because she’s the talent.”
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And of course I would ask for her to be paid to, say for example, speak on stage, or doing something, because she’s the talent and she works for me.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. You can’t let yourself be the lowest paid employee in your business.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Oh my God, no. And you so many of us do that. We make sure that we pay our suppliers. And we make sure that we pay our rent. But we don’t see ourselves as being an important part of that.
Miriam Schulman:
No. Let’s get right to some of these things that I’m dying to talk about. One thing that has been one of your key messages, actually, for a while is why we shouldn’t barter. That might be trading a painting for something. And I have to admit, I’ve done this and it’s definitely…
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
What have you traded for?
Miriam Schulman:
I’m going to tell you. It totally backfired on me. Back when I was doing my portrait commissions, which I still sometimes do, but I was in the throes of it then. And my hairdresser really wanted me to paint her children, and she didn’t think she could afford it. So she asked me to swap hair services for the paintings. And on the surface that sounds reasonable, but she couldn’t do my hair in the salon, she had to do it in her apartment. Which meant I had to go from my house, in the suburbs, into New York City, and spend all that time traveling back and forth. So I definitely lost on that end of the bargain, so it was not an even trade. I loved when I learned from you, because I’ve been following Denise, actually, for a long time.
I started following you, and you said, “Don’t barter,” and as soon as you decide not to barter, the universe is going to test you. And sure enough, the next day then my friend wanted to trade a painting with me for her painting. And I said, “Nope, you can buy the painting and I will buy one of your paintings.”
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
I love it.
Miriam Schulman:
Because that way you’re telling the universe that you are open for business, and you accept money for your art.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And that’s it, right? The two things you just said exactly what I would say. First of all, it very rarely works out. Someone is always screwed over and it’s usually you, because I find that the person who has the audacity to ask, is the person who usually doesn’t follow through on their side of the bargain. I’ve actually met very few artists who they’re the ones who have requested the barter in the first place.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
It’s interesting, because it’s almost like the people who have the audacity to do that are usually the ones who they don’t value themselves either, and usually they don’t do a good job in fulfilling that. I’ve heard similar things to you, where someone has bartered for something like a service, like hairdressing, and the person is really bad at what they do. It just doesn’t work out in so many ways. Someone always gets screwed over. But the second thing is probably the most important, and that’s the energy behind it. It does sound very nice of like, “We’re past money. We don’t have to think about money. Let’s just have this beautiful generosity, where we just exchange energy.” And it sounds really lovely, but we live in a world that money is a form of exchange and currency. And also, we live in a world where women, and creatives, are often really disadvantaged when it comes to money anyway.
So why would we take ourselves out of the system even further? And when people say, “Let’s do it, so we can avoid taxes.” Again, what message are you sending out to the universe? That I don’t believe that I can pay tax. I don’t believe that I’m responsible enough to pay tax. It just energetically closes you down to paying clients. Because even when you do it with one person, it’s contagious. Then the next person comes along, she second guesses your value and doesn’t want to pay it, or asks for a discount, because they can sense that you have these wishy-washy money boundaries where you actually don’t believe in your work anyway. So you then start to attract more and more of it. That can just make you so resentful. You have to be really strong in your value before other people can see it. That’s the truth.
Miriam Schulman:
And one of my friends develops websites. Actually, not a girl, a guy, and he wanted to trade somebody for coaching. And I said to him, “Well, would you pay for the coaching, if you weren’t going to be doing a trade?” He hesitated. So if you wouldn’t pay for it, then it’s not a fair trade. If you’re not willing to pay money for it, then you’re basically saying you’re doing it for free, because you’re not having that value around it.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Well, the other thing too is that people suck at setting boundaries usually. I notice that when people do this bartering thing in the first place, then they have terrible boundaries around it, so it ends up being this open-ended… The person becomes a terrible client, like say for example, a website client.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
That person could be someone that you would never necessarily work with, because maybe they don’t know what they want, or you think, “We’re bartering, so let’s not do contracts.”
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And then you get grope creep, and all this other stuff. It’s a big old mess. The best thing to do is to have really black and white, you pay me, I pay you. And then you’ll realize I wouldn’t even pay for that.
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
I don’t want to work with that.
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And that’s okay too.
Miriam Schulman:
I love that. Let’s talk about another one of your pet peeves, which is crowdsourcing prices, which artists are very guilty of. First of all, tell us what that is, and I’ll tell you how that shows up in the art world, if you don’t already know.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Oh my God, yes. I can imagine. Crowdsourcing is when you ask everybody in your life what they think. Crowdsourcing pricing is when you say to someone, “Hey, what would you pay for this?” I say this a lot in forums, and I’m sure there are a lot of creative artist forums. It’s like, “Hey guys, I did this painting. What would you pay for it?” And it’s like, first of all, you’re usually asking people who are your ideal customers. Sometimes they’re your competitors, so they’re not going to necessarily give you the best answer. And also, the reason why it really does not work is because most industries have collective insecurities and collective money blocks.
Miriam Schulman:
Especially artists.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Of course, because of the starving artist thing. You might be asking people thinking, “People will tell me honestly.” But you don’t know what money blocks and believes they have about being an artist. They might think, or they’re being told from a young age, you can’t charge for this.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Or you should give this away for free, or the starving artist thing. You’re just borrowing all of that icky energy. And in the art world, more than almost any other industry I think, there is no… I mean, what would you pay for a Picasso?
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Who decides what is value in the art world? There’s no cost of goods sold, easy formula for working out art, because art, itself, is priceless. It’s weird that we do this. So tell me how you seen it play out.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, they go onto Etsy and they look at what people are charging on Etsy, but they don’t… They say, “They’re only charging $15 for a print.” The people who are charging only $15 for a print are going to burn themselves out when they finally realize they’re only making a dollar an hour. Because by the time you print that image out, and pack it up, and deal with the back and forth customer emails of, “Well, do you have it in this size? And do you have it in this color? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” You’re only making a dollar. I never priced my prints based on what the average person on Etsy did, because I recognize, “Look what can I make money on?” And then, after a certain point, I even eliminated some of those sizes that I felt I couldn’t charge enough to make it worth my while.
Now, they either buy a larger size, or they don’t buy from me. That’s one way it definitely shows up, is looking on Etsy, which is not a good place to set your prices.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
What you just said there about the dollar, I had a friend, when she finally did the numbers, she actually realized she was losing $4 for each piece of art that she sold. Because she didn’t take into account the tube that she need to send it in, the postage and the fees, and that’s not even including her time.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
So many of us feel like, “I can charge for the art, but I can’t charge for my time, and my expertise, and my creativity.”
Miriam Schulman:
Well, it’s hard for a lot of women artists, because they enjoy it and, therefore, they feel guilty charging for something that they enjoy and comes easy for them.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And what I’ve always said is you can make art and have it be your hobby, but if you’re in business, you better be making money.
Miriam Schulman:
Just give it away, if you don’t want to make money.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
You can love it and make money.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
You can help people and make money. You can create joyful things and make money. You can donate a portion to charity, and still make money. All of those things are totally okay.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes. And you also mentioned in your book, there was one chapter you’re talking about a handmade box in a store, that I think they were charging $14. Do you want to share that story?
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
It’s a secondhand bookshop near me, and obviously they sell secondhand books. But I saw this beautiful little jewelry box, and it was just this little soap stone. I’ve never heard of soap stone before. And it had a tree of life carved in it, and it was so beautiful. I saw it and I said, “Is this secondhand?” And he goes, “No, my wife makes them.”
Miriam Schulman:
Crazy.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
I was like, “$14? That’s so cheap.” He goes, “Well, I want it to be affordable for people.” Affordable is just one of those words that gives me… What’s the word? It gives me the poohs, because who defines affordable? And why should art and beauty be so cheap that we burn ourselves out creating it for people? This is the other thing, I think we live in this consumer society now, that we think that everyone should be able to afford everything they want, when they want it. As a kid, I’m sure you remember this too, I remember saving up for things. It’s okay for people to save up to purchase from you something that they’ll treasure forever. And I’m not saying this box was so special that I would save up for weeks and months for it, but it still would have been affordable at $25.
Miriam Schulman:
It still would have been affordable at $50. If they had stuck that same box in a gallery in New York, they could have charged $500.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Absolutely.
Miriam Schulman:
If it was in Soho, the same exact box, you put the box in a flea market, secondhand, sure 15 bucks. But if it was in Soho on a little pretty crystal tray, somebody could ask $500 for that same box.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Absolutely. And you know what? This is the funny thing about valuing stuff. I actually don’t have that box anymore, it got co-married in my last declutter, and I think it was because it was only $14.
Miriam Schulman:
If you had spent $500 for it on your trip to New York City, you would have felt differently about it.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
I absolutely would have felt differently about it. Instead, I was like, “It’s a commodity,” and I don’t want us to feel that way about art. I want us to challenge this throwaway society, where things are so cheap and it’s instant gratification to people. When I think of some of the things I saved up for, as a kid, I remember saving up for a jewelry box. Now, looking back, it probably was a mass market jewelry box, but I saved up for it. And it’s okay for people to have you on their dream board. It’s okay for people to have you on their goal list, to save up for, and finally have that accomplishment of buying it. If I bought a piece of art for 50 bucks, I don’t think I would value it as much, to be honest.
It probably would get decluttered, and I’d go, “Whatever, I’ll just give that to the charity shop.” There’s something there about allowing people to value you, and valuing possessions again.
Miriam Schulman:
One thing that drives me nuts is when artists price their originals at the same price that it should be for a print.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
No, that’s no fun. There’s something there too. Sometimes we judge our customers by what we would pay ourselves.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And that’s not the thing. When it comes to art, a lot of times… Look, if someone comes to your house and says, “Oh my God, look at that piece of art. That’s amazing.” You don’t say, “Thanks, it was 10 bucks.” You don’t tell people how cheap it was when it comes to art. You say, “Oh my God, this amazing artist, and it’s a one of a kind. This is an original, or there’s only 10 of them in the world.” That’s what you tell people about. You’re not getting excited about the fact that it was super cheap.
Miriam Schulman:
And while we’re on the subject, let’s talk about why somebody pricing their art too cheap actually can hurt sales. I know that’s something that you touch upon in pricing mistakes in the Chillpreneur book.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Thinking about the personality types of your customers. And in the art world, you often get the celebrity personality type buying art. And for them, it’s part of their identity that it’s exclusive. That it was something that is precious and rare, and even that it was expensive. Sometimes for some personality types, and some pieces of art, the amount that they pay for it gives them just as much pleasure as the art itself.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s true.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Which can feel really weird, if you’re an artist, because you then think, “Well, I wouldn’t pay that.” And it’s because you’re not that customer.
Miriam Schulman:
This is the same customer who will pay more for fashion, because the higher the price tag, the more exclusive that fashion is.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Absolutely. And I have a friend like this. I remember she said, “I love your dress.” And I said, “Thanks.” It was $49 or something from Kmart. And she was like, “I don’t like it anymore,” even though she liked it before she knew that it was a Target dress or whatever. I’m not saying that all of your art is sold to people who you might even judge them for it, but that is a very valid reason to buy for some people, is the exclusivity and the rareness of it, and the preciousness, and actually sometimes the price of it. We just have to face the fact that is a thing.
The other thing about pricing in this way is it has to be win-win. It has to feel good to you, and it has to feel good to your customer as well. And quite often we don’t do that. We actually sometimes feel a little bit resentful. Have you ever done that? I’m sure in the very early part of your life, in your career, you’ve actually were annoyed at your customer for paying little prices, even though you, yourself, priced your work.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, when I was doing the portrait work, every time I had a difficult customer my prices went up, and the contract got longer. It was like I didn’t know that I needed a boundary around that, but now I do, so I would add that to my contract. I would raise my prices. I know you talk about not giving your stuff away for free. We’re talking about pricing, but artists are always getting asked for free art, always. Whether it’s for somebody’s charity fundraiser, or, “Will you paint this sign for me?” In other words, you’re basically giving away your graphic design services for free. They always assume because you’re an artist, and you love to do art, that this is the service that you give to the world.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Absolutely. You know what? Every profession has this.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
If you’re a doctor, and you’re at a party, people are showing you their wart and stuff like that. It’s something that happens and, unfortunately, it happens a lot more in the creative world, because people think this your calling. This comes easy to you. They don’t think that necessarily artists have had to learn their skill and craft. They often think that it’s just God given and that’s it. You’re just a creative artsy person. One thing that I think every entrepreneur needs to learn is boundaries.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And the art of saying no. Melanie Romero, she actually coaches speakers, and speakers get asked to talk a lot for free, as well. One thing that she told me to say is to have an internal quota for things like that. And she said, “Once a quarter is a really good way to think about it. That you do a free speech for a charity or something like that.” When that quota is done, that quota is done. And it gives you a bit of a way to say to people, “Listen, I do four pieces of that a year for a charitable institutions, and my quota is full up this year.”
Miriam Schulman:
I love that.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
But I have some pieces, I have some affordable pieces, or I have this, or I have that, or apply next year, or whatever. But I just think it’s just a really beautiful way, and I love that Melanie taught me that, because it can feel like otherwise you have this unending pit of need. Because there is a lot of need, and a lot of great charities out there, and a lot of people that you want to help. But without that internal quota, you’re never going to feel like what you do is enough anyway. Even if you do help a lot of people, you’ll always think, “But I should be doing more.” At least, then you go, “You know what? I’m doing enough. I’m doing my quota. I feel really good about that.”
Miriam Schulman:
And the biggest lie is that a lot of these people that are looking for donations like to say, “It’s good exposure for you.”
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Give me a break. You know what? I’ve actually spoken a few times for exposure, and those people never, ever, give you the tapes. They’ve gone, “We’ll give you the video.” There’s this one person, I’ve been chasing her forever, just to get the video that she promised for speaking at her event for free. Those people are often the hardest people to deal with.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And they’re the people who actually give you the least amount of exposure. I’ve done it sometimes with friends, and they’re very generous in absolutely talking me up, and sharing my stuff. But most of the time, people don’t, they don’t follow through. It’s the same with the bartering thing. People don’t follow through.
Miriam Schulman:
I always know the kiss of death is when they say, “You’re going to get so much business from me.” Those are always the ones where it’s nothing. When they say that I know something is wrong, like I must not have charged enough. There’s some motive for them saying that, that always tells me I’m either over delivering, under charging. Why are they saying this now? It doesn’t usually come through. Not that I don’t get referrals, but when people say that it’s usually a signal to me that the opposite is true.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Absolutely. And you know what though? If you do have someone who constantly gives you business, then that can feel really good to say, “You know what? You have given me so much, I would love to gift you a painting, or I would love to speak at your event.” But then that comes from a place of power, and a place of generosity, not feeling like you’re being taken advantage of, which unfortunately happens all the time. The whole thing with this cheap thing too. I remember, I had said to someone where I said, “You’ve got to work with this person, she’s so cheap,” and she heard me. And I felt so bad, because I was like, “That is not a compliment.” People will say, “You’ve got to work with this person before she puts her prices up.” It was like, “No, you don’t want to be that person who’s spoken of like that.”
Miriam Schulman:
No. I don’t necessarily like working with those people either. I was working with a copywriter, who I no longer work with, who was so cheap. She was so bad with deadlines that I finally had to stop using her. I remember when I was using her thinking, “I wish she would raise her prices and have less clients. I’d be happy to pay it and have her work with less people and get me my stuff on time.”
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Yes. I feel the same way. I’ve said to people, “I will pay you double to see you in two weeks, as opposed to three months.” When you think of your target audience, you have to think what motivates them? Is it speed, for example? This is something that I find really interesting is fast turnaround. You pay for it in every industry, but in the art world, or in the creative world, we feel bad for charging for fast turnaround.
Miriam Schulman:
In December, when somebody comes to you for that last minute dog portrait, there should be the Christmas rush fee, right?
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Absolutely. I’ve been to Kinko’s, and I’ve wanted it now, I have to pay the fast turnaround fee. If I’m sending a package to the UK, and I want it there in three days instead of 12 days, I pay for that. It’s in every industry. I order a pizza the other day and they said, “Pay $3 extra and we’ll get it to you in 20 minutes.”
Miriam Schulman:
Done, no brainer.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
It’s in every industry, but we think we can’t do it, because I shouldn’t charge extra for this.
Miriam Schulman:
I’m going to make them happy by getting it done fast.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Exactly. You know what? I’m a last minute girl. I absolutely am. So I am happy to pay premium prices for it, because I know I didn’t get my shit together, and I’m going to pay for that. And actually, before Christmas, I did hire an illustrator. I wish I had it here. A little illustration of my family, because I didn’t have a really good present for Mark, and I paid way more than I would have paid if I’d thought of it months before. But I was like I need a present and I need it now, and then I went to the copy shop and I had to pay more to get it printed out now, because everyone was there trying to do their Christmas stuff.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
This is the thing. When you have clients like that, first of all, it’s okay for you to say no, if you’re someone who doesn’t like working under pressure. It’s also okay for you to say yes, and charge the premium, even if it’s something that comes really easy to you.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
And you can do it in an hour. They still should pay the premium rate, because what you do is worth it. And you don’t want to be that person who says, “Yep, I’ll make it happen for you,” and not have a contract in place, not get a deposit, because often those people ghost on you.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. There’s one woman who is in one of these artist groups, and it used to drive me crazy, because she was always starting commissions without a deposit. I don’t know how many times I “coached” her. I mean, obviously, she wasn’t paying me to coach her, it was just giving her free advice on this Facebook group. Don’t start these commissions until you get a deposit. It was like Groundhog Day. She would always start it, and the person would disappear. And now I did all this work. I said, “Well, why didn’t you take the deposit first?”
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
As my money mentor, Kendall Summerhawk, who I absolutely love, she drummed this into me at the very start of my business. You don’t have a client, until you have a deposit.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s not even when you get the ring. You’re unengaged until you have a date on the calendar. That’s how I see it with the commissions. Because they could change their mind and buy their husband a set of golf clubs.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Absolutely.
Miriam Schulman:
Did you start that painting, Miriam? Because if you haven’t, I think I’d rather get golf clubs for my husband.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
What a priceless learning… You obviously learnt from a…
Miriam Schulman:
That was a long time ago. That was 15 years ago.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
But you remember it, right?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
The priceless lessons. Sometimes these things, rather than getting annoyed and resentful at people, you have to, as you said, your contract has gotten longer, and longer, and longer, because you’ve taken ownership over that. Because, unfortunately, people are flaky in the world, and they’re not going to change necessarily. But you have to change and protect yourself. Sometimes when something like that happens, I praise them in my mind, because I think you have properly either saved me or me so much money, so thank you. I don’t say it to them.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Energetically, I’m like, “Thank you for being such a pain in my butt, because this is going to save me so many problems in the future. Thank you.”
Miriam Schulman:
So true. And then I just want to give a few more pro tips for my artists. You were talking about how to thank a customer for referrals. What I generally do is, if they’ve purchased original art from me, and they’ve gotten me referrals, I will create a set of note cards with the artwork on them that they have either… If it’s a commissioned portrait of their family, it’ll be a set of note cards with that image on it, and I will gift them the note cards as a thank you gift. There are ways to definitely thank them without giving them free art. $1,000 painting is not really a thank you gift, it’s just like you said, it’s the wrong gift. It’s too much. That’s not something you would do to thank somebody.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Yeah, I think that’s really good. It’s finding the appropriateness.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
I often like to use the word appropriate pricing, rather than expensive, or affordable, or cheap. It’s appropriate, because appropriate, I mean, that changes over time.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes, it does. And it changes with your experience, your skills, and it’s something I want to just circle back to. We talked about when you price too cheaply, people assume she must be new. She must be starting out. She must not be as good. How many times have we gotten work done on our house and didn’t go with the cheapest wallpaper person, or whatever it was. Because you’re assuming, well, they’re probably not as good.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
You’re suspicious.
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly, exactly. Especially if you have two paintings that are the same size, always price the same thing, or your customer is going to wonder what’s wrong with that cheaper one? There maybe nothing wrong with it, except maybe you don’t like it as much. But they’re going to think there must be something wrong with this.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
That’s so true, yes. I’ve experienced that myself. And I actually buy a lot of art, and I’ve done the same thing. It’s really interesting going to our local art shows. We often buy from local artists. And it’s fascinating seeing the differences in price. I notice that my husband, he’s very attracted to higher prices. If I like two about the same, he’ll always pick the more expensive one, even if it’s by a completely different artist.
Miriam Schulman:
Interesting.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Because he feels like that’s more valuable. Whereas, what I tend to do, honestly, I look at something and to see if I like it first before I look at the price, and a lot of people do the opposite, which I find interesting.
Miriam Schulman:
Interesting. All right, Denise. Well, you definitely gave us a lot to ponder today. I’m so glad you were here and we’re all inspired. Definitely get Denise’s latest book, Chillpreneur. It’s also out on audible, and I have that free trial for you, schulmanart.com/audible, and I’ve also listed a link to purchase her books in the show notes for those who need those hard copies to write in the margins. Denise, do you have anything else to add before we call this episode complete?
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
I do. I was just thinking how fun this would be for everyone to practice this, is create a piece of art, and price it a crazy outrageous amount for you, just to experiment, because you’ve got nothing to lose, especially if you’ve been under charging and under pricing for such a long time. Just experiment with it, put a crazy amount, even just pick a number out of your butt, really. Because sometimes you just have to acclimatize to new prices. And once someone pays it, you’ll realize that’s just my new normal, so you’ve got nothing to lose to experiment with that. What would love is take a screenshot of the podcast art and tag us on Instagram, and tell us how that feels.
Miriam Schulman:
What’s your handle on Instagram, Denise?
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
I’m at Denise DT.
Miriam Schulman:
We will have a link to your Instagram handle in the show notes, as well, just in case they’re in the car and they want to know. And I’m at Schulman Art. We would love for you to tag us, so we can see your beautiful artwork. Great idea.
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Yes, please.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. Let’s wrap up. Thanks so much again for joining us, Denise. You can find the show notes at schulmanart.com/33. I’ve also included a link to her website. Is that still luckybitch.com?
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Yeah, luckybitch.com, or denisedt.com.
Miriam Schulman:
Is that easier to use on Facebook advertising, if it doesn’t have the word bitch?
Denise Duffield-Thomas:
That’s the word. Yes. The climate is so much more Facebook friendly, so yes. The great thing is all my handles, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram is all Denise DT, so I’m very, very easy to find, and I love hearing people’s ah-has.
Miriam Schulman:
Perfect. All right. Thanks so much again for being with us today. We will see you same time, same place, next week. Make it a great one. Bye, for now.
Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place Podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at Facebook.com/schulmanart, on Instagram @SchulmanArt and, of course, on schulmanart.com.
Miriam Schulman:
Hey, there. If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to checkout the Inspired Insiders Club. It’s my monthly membership program, where you get inspiration from me. Every month, I share with you techniques that I use in my own art for drawing and painting in both, water color and mixed media. Plus, each month we meet live. We talk about inspiration and ideas for how to make the art in your own style, and you get to ask me questions, or even get critiqued on your art. If you’re doing stuff in your art, and your goal for 2019 is to unleash greater creativity, or to spend more time painting, but you need a little help creating that habit, then the Inspired Insiders Club will help you get there. Come join me over at schulmanart.com. That’s SchulmanArt.com/join. I’d love to have you join me in the Inspired Insiders Club. See you there.
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