THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Miriam Schulman:
Well hello. This is your host, artist Miriam Schulman, and you’re listening to Episode number 99 of the Inspiration Place Podcast. I am so honored that you’re here. Today we’re talking about writing books. So if you’ve ever wanted to write a memoir or a book about how to paint, or really anything else for that matter, then this episode is for you. In this episode, you’ll discover the very first thing you need to do before you begin writing, why most would-be authors never get published, and the three publishing pathways and how to know which one is right for you.
Today I am honored to have both founders of Authors Who Lead. We first have Steve Vannoy, who is the COO, co-founder, and artistic and creative director of Authors Who Lead. And he’s the host of the Soul and Stories Podcast. He guides those seeking more love, prosperity, and joy in their lives to live in alignment with self. He travels the world using gifts of intuition, wisdom, and creativity, helping others to find personal freedom from unwanted stories. Through his practice, he helps others bring visions and dreams into a reality of abundance, in flow with their higher soul purpose.
And of course, we also have Azul, who is the CEO and world-renowned leader and international speaker and host of the Born To Write Podcast. He’s a contributor to Thrive Global, Addicted 2 Success, The Good Men Project, and is the best-selling author of The Art of Apprenticeship. Azul has been featured on Smart Passive Income Podcast and spoken at Podcast Movement among many others. Please welcome to the Inspiration Place Azul Terronez and Steve Vannoy. Well hey there. Welcome to the show.
Azul Terronez:
Thanks for having us.
Steve Vannoy:
Yeah, it’s great to be here.
Miriam Schulman:
I know these two guys in real life. We hung out. Was it only once in San Diego?
Azul Terronez:
Yeah in San Diego.
Miriam Schulman:
Seems like we know each other much better though. The reason why I invited you guys onto the show is because at the beginning of this year, I told myself I wanted to write a book and that hasn’t happened yet. That is the real reason I invited you on the show. And you know I have an audience of multi-passionate, creative people who also let’s assume want to write books. So it’s for them, but that’s really for me.
Azul Terronez:
Okay, we’re going to help, like always.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes, okay. When people come to you to write books, are these how-to books? Are they memoirs? Are they combinations? Can you tell me a little bit about that first?
Azul Terronez:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say there’s three types of people that come to us and we’ve kind of developed an archetype or a way of understanding the publishing path for these authors. And the first one is something we’ve called a rising star. So these are probably people who have a book inside of them. Maybe they’re still doing their 9:00 to 5:00, or they’ve just retired, but they know there’s something more to write and they want to get known for something.
Azul Terronez:
Maybe take that first step out. And so we recommend that person write sort of more of an opportunity for people to get to know them. Something that would draw them to you. It could be a memoir. So the rising star viewpoint is the person making their first big step towards something new. So what we think a book that tells their story is really important because it draws people into who they are, maybe why they should be a leader. Being a leader means a creator. Who’s telling the story in the pages of a book.
And so those books can be very short. They can be about their lives. They could be about their viewpoint and those are really the people who are really trying to go somewhere new. Those books can come from lots of places. They could be a nonfiction book. They’re rarely fiction, but they’re usually memoir-esq. And they’re usually telling about the thing that they’re caring about loving, passionate about now.
And that’s really helpful when people are like, “Oh, I don’t know what to write about. I kind of have this thing, I’m just not sure. Maybe I want to make a course from it. Or maybe I really want to start as a side hustle or I’ve been doing it as a side hustle and I want people to know about it, but I’m still doing this other thing.” So it’s really getting people to know you, build authority by creating your method or teachings in a book or your story.
Miriam Schulman:
Azul, are you mostly the coach for the books, or do the two of you work together? How does that work?
Steve Vannoy:
Yeah, Azul is the lead coach, I do some coaching and I work individually mostly with the authors that we support. I’ll often be there when they feel stuck or they need to shake things up we might have a private session. I’m also a part of our groups and we have a group that we meet weekly that we support and those are authors who we’ve worked with. They’ve kind of moved to the next level. It’s sort of a mastermind, we don’t really call it a mastermind. It’s called the Leaders Circle. When we were hosting in-person events, helping structure that really being a creative mind and a visionary behind the scenes mostly.
Azul Terronez:
I would say he’s the creative director. He’s the one that makes sure everything is visioned outstays true to the path, keeps us on brand. He’s the community builder and manager of creating events. And I tend to be the front-facing coach to help people who are going, “I want to write a book now what?” So that’s sort of how we divide our roles up.
Miriam Schulman:
Got it. Okay. So then I’m going to ask you Azul, with the three types, do people come to you knowing which one? Do they need to know ahead of time, which category they fall into or do you help them figure that out?
Azul Terronez:
Usually through our application process where we ask them to take a quiz, to figure some things out, because they don’t often know, like, what do you mean? Like, I don’t know what… I’m coming to you. So we have a quiz. This is what your book’s publishing path and through answering the questions it helps separate them clearly. “Oh, I see. I see why this book is best for me at this time in my life.”
Miriam Schulman:
Of course, you have a quiz. What is the URL of your quiz?
Azul Terronez:
It’s authorswholead.com/quiz. It’s going to be easy. What it does is help answer these questions that you’re asking me now like, well, what path is right for me? What book type should I create? So the first one I told you about was the rising star. Those are the ones who really it’s their first step forward in something bigger, but they’re not quite making their living doing that thing or are known for that thing yet. But they really want to start something next. You know, maybe they’ve had a passion for something and they want to start to share that more.
So the quiz helps us to identify who they are so we can help them because, in the past, the only way we could do it is by interviewing them. We have an application process, we’d have to sift through it, to decide, and then work with them. The quizzes job is to help them understand why is this their path? What types of things they’ll want to do when they write a book like this? And what’s the very next step.
Miriam Schulman:
I’m selfishly going through the quiz. I don’t think I fit in rising star because I kind of have my thing would you agree with that? They’re both nodding by the way. Okay. All right. Walk me through the second archetype. Do you call them archetypes or what do you call them?
Azul Terronez:
We call them publishing paths. What’s your publishing path? So there’s these optimal publishing paths that people have and it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t eventually write all three of those books, but depending on where they are right now, they might be in a different spot. So the second publishing path would be a trailblazer. And the trailblazer path is often a book of authority where they’re trying to establish themselves as sort of get credibility.
So maybe they have an audience, they probably have a following. Maybe they have a podcast or blog. Maybe we have an email list. They’ve been doing their thing on their own now. So they’re growing, but they know they’re not quite at the level they want to be. They want to start moving it up. And they think that a book would be a good way to build credibility, to get more opportunities, to be seen as the lead in their industry not just one of those, they want to be the person.
So those trailblazers are really pushing through to create a community of followers or start to get known more concretely, even outside of their niche for authority. Someone maybe the media might want to talk to somebody that other podcasters out of the niche might want to attract because being an author starts to attract different attention than within the small little niche that they’ve been working in. But they’re probably successful. They’re probably working on their own. They probably are doing quite well, but it’s time to expand and grow maybe into something bigger. Maybe they want to use their platform to launch into something that’s next.
Miriam Schulman:
As a podcaster myself. I don’t know what the number is, this is kind of a made-up number. I’m probably 10 times likelier to ask somebody to interview for the podcast. If they have written a book than if they haven’t. If it’s coach Nancy Jo, but no book, I’m very unlikely to ask her if they have an angle and I understand what they’re about not only does that give me a path in to understand what their message is and how to present them to my audience, but it makes them more interesting to me. So that’s just why you need a book.
Azul Terronez:
That aspect of what you’re talking about there with the book, the credibility it’s like, they may have just written it. You don’t know how many they’ve sold, you don’t know where it ranks, but that coach or that person has kind of risen to an expert.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s not just the credibility. It’s also understanding their message because coaches who coach other coaches, I can’t make meaning out of that. And yes, they may have some interesting ideas and they could probably talk about one of the topics I’m interested in but if there’s no framework for me to wrap my head around, it’s very difficult for me to see easily how my audience would be able to relate to it or how it relates to artists. So it’s not just that I see them as more credible, but it’s also kind of a pathway to understanding what they’re about and what we can talk about.
Azul Terronez:
That’s right. That’s exactly right. It makes it easier to know what’s your message? What’s your conversation? So the media will talk to you the big media because they know, oh, this person talks about this they aren’t just the coach. That doesn’t build confidence and clarity. So that’s why the trailblazers are often people who are really aware that it’s time to get onto the boat of like, what’s my uniqueness in this conversation? That middle one tends to be the largest group of people to be honest, who were already on their way, they’re making their path, they’re working through it.
And then lastly, fewer of these people, but they’re the movement makers. These are people who have had wild success perhaps. They have a big following, maybe they’ve even sold that business or they’re being known for the person within the elite peers. They want to be seen on stages as the keynote. They want to be on the stages of the people they used to look up to when they first started. They want to have that TED Talk. They want to get interviewed by the media. They want attention from actually a traditional publisher even if they choose to self publish. They want to be asked to big corporations to speak and have larger speaking fees.
Movement makers know that having a book that curates them as a thought leader, which is the type of book we suggest they write, a thought leader book is the way to go. So that usually signals to people like I am joining the ranks of whatever, who it might be. For me it might be a Simon Sinek or Seth Goden because I’m looking to play in their field and to do that, I’m going to have to build authority, build my thought leader message here that makes me stand above the rest. And then my peers, even amongst my peers, I might start to be elevated. So that’s the movement maker.
So those three pathways really depend on the type of book you’re writing. If you’re writing a book on thought leadership, you really have to show up outside of the niche. You can’t just talk about the thing you do. The trailblazer can talk about everything they know about. How to do graphic lettering to make money as a calligrapher. That’s really helpful, it grows their brand, their credibility, and it’s important. But if you’re going to be a movement maker, you have to be able to lead the masses, and to lead the masses you have to have a message that resonates outside of the niche, not just inside, but really outside.
Miriam Schulman:
A trailblazer would be if I were to write a how-to sell art type of book, whereas a movement maker is I’m talking about perhaps how to get inspired or something that’s larger than just how to sell art. Did I get that right?
Azul Terronez:
Correct. They’re having a bigger conversation that attracts the masses. And that’s the only way I can say, rather than the niches, they’re talking about the masses.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s really sexy. Okay.
Azul Terronez:
Yeah, they have a powerful conversation that they are going to own and it’s actually going to become part of their legacy. So it’s, it’s bigger than the brand. It’s the community, the masses they’re going to impact.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, I got lit up when you said that, I was like, oh that sounds really fun. Now with these three different types, so I know you coach them in groups and someday you’ll be doing in-person retreats again.
Azul Terronez:
Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
Do you bring these three types of authors together in the same spaces or do you segregate them?
Azul Terronez:
We bring them together for those rising stars. Those people in the room are the people they aspire to be someday. So that’s important for them to get access to those people and go, “Oh my gosh.” I’d love… You know you see Pat Flynn speaking from the stage you’re talking, you’re like, “That’s someday when.” You’re aspiring them. For the other movement makers, they get to connect mingle and say “What are you doing that’s working?”
They get an opportunity to connect with their peers without having to be on stage and perform. Because they’re used to being the one that everyone pays attention to. When they’re in the room with their peers, they can serve those rising stars, but they can feel like they can get value from each other. And then the trailblazers they’re somewhere in between both of them. So they can either reach up or reach down and help. So we feel like the way we designed it is that we’d have three different experiences within a weekend. That one person might attend all of them because it matters. And sometimes just a movement maker will tend to have dinner that’s meant to be for connection.
Miriam Schulman:
Talk to me about the experience so I can just fantasize about that day when we get to leave. I’m in New York so I barely leave my house. It’s really sad. I mean, I’ve walked around my neighborhood.
Steve Vannoy:
So the experience that we put together, the most recent was in San Diego. We really looked to curate the space. The space, the food, organic, delicious food. Everything was high touch and above expectations. So some people thought I’m signing up to go to a writer’s workshop. They attend that day and realize the caliber of people that had come together, who just sparked amazing conversations and inspired each other. And we had hands-on.
It wasn’t just being talked to from the stage, but actually catering around who showed up in the room and allowing some flexibility for Azul and I, to create an experience based on all of the experience that we have in the background, knowing how to work with different types of people and Azul, you could speak to that a little bit. It’s adjusting so that we’re not pushing our agenda. We do have an agenda, but knowing that there may be some specific needs that show up and just being able to handle that on the day.
The first thing he said, “I want people to walk away saying that was a world-class event.” What does it look like and feel like? That looks like it feels like the first night you’re there for the dinner. We had a beautiful dinner for all of our guests, both movement makers, trailblazers, and also the rising stars, they were a special invite. We really tried to make it trailblazers, movement makers for that dinner because we really felt like they had the most to give and then invited guests. That the dinner would be cooked with the chef right there with them in the room, that it would be incredible cheese boards and foods-
Miriam Schulman:
Okay just stop talking right now.
Steve Vannoy:
In a penthouse. Looking out over the skyline, yeah.
Miriam Schulman:
By the way, I wanted to let you know that I do have room inside my Artist Incubator Program. So if you’re lacking a solid strategy and a winning mindset, and maybe you’re disappointed with your current art sales, I can help you. If you’ve been listening to this podcast and found my tips helpful, then maybe it’s time to take the next logical step and work with me on a deeper level.
The Artist Incubator Program is for professional artists who want to take their art business to the next level. If you’re ready to invest in your art career and join a dynamic community of artists who are all doing the same thing, go to schulmanart.com/BIZ as in biz to apply now. Don’t worry, there’s no fee or commitment to apply and those who qualify will get a free strategy call with me. Now, back to the show.
By the way, I just want my audience to know that I am in no way an affiliate for… we could talk about that too. I’m in no way an affiliate for Steve and Azul, I just really want to know about the book writing process. It sounds like an amazing experience, and I can see how I would be really lit up and excited about that. But what are you doing that helps them, right?
Steve Vannoy:
Right, the biggest thing we notice, the hindrance to books being written have very little to do with words on the page. Their biggest hindrance is believing that their book’s going to be good enough, depending on even where they are. So the rising stars, the movement makers, the trailblazers, they all feel this deep inside. Like, well what if isn’t good enough? How do I know it’s the right book? How do I know which book to write? I’ve written a book before now I don’t know if I have enough ideas.
We’re spending a lot of time wrestling those truths to the ground in front of them so they don’t walk away with them because most people with good intentions, even if they start a book, don’t finish it. So the statistics are something according to the New York times, 2008, an article said that 81% of Americans say they have a book inside of them, but only 3% ever finish a manuscript.
So the percentages of want versus percentages of a complete are really low in comparison to the people who want to. But even after that, so let’s say that 3%, “I finished a manuscript I’m so excited.” Only 30% of those people actually hit publish or get it published in any way. So we’re talking a fraction of 1% actually ever become an author. And we realized that the biggest problem isn’t want, desire or know-how. It’s the deeper beliefs about, am I good enough to do this? And why would anyone listen to me?
And so they talk themselves in and out of this book and they think they want to know how to. And in we’re our workshops, we really wrestle the books out of them in a way that they can see the book finally on a page and visually. So we use a visual map. We use a lot of drawings and imagery to show them their book so they don’t have to fear that it won’t be good enough or wait till it’s written to judge it they can see it for itself. So that’s part of the way we bring it about is we use visual processing, artistic expression, the words get in the way often of a good book message early on.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, some of that really resonated with me and I’m just going to be vulnerable and share what did and what didn’t. I completely agree about it not being the words, because what a lot of people don’t know for this podcast when I write a solo show, it can be 4,000 words for a 30-minute podcast episode, and I’m doing that on a regular basis. So that’s why I figured, oh you know, in January when we all had these great goals, I thought oh a book is just a couple of podcast episodes I’ve got it. In fact, it’s halfway written. I could just take a couple of those episodes, slap it together, put some stuff in between. So I can totally see that it’s not the words, but for me, I’m not sure the not good enough resonated with me.
Though I can see how that’s definitely true for other people. What resonated with me was not having a clear vision of what that book needed to be. Because with this podcast, I remember, I don’t know how many years ago it was five, six years ago. I heard Pat Flynn was on Amy Porterfield’s podcast talking about, oh, let’s start a podcast, blah, blah, blah. I said, “Oh, that sounds like a fun idea.” And it wasn’t until two years ago when it really crystallized in my mind what that podcast was going to look like, what that podcast was going to be. And once I got that clarity, it was like done. The ball was in the cup already. I knew exactly how I wanted to move forward and what I wanted to do with it. And I feel like I need that kind of clarity before I start the book.
Steve Vannoy:
Yep and that’s because rising star, movement makers, trailblazers have different fears for different reasons. Clarity is the biggest one that people come to us for because like, I’m just not sure what this is. And so exactly what you said is a lot of our early work is helping them get clarity about, well, what is this? And I think I could give an example so that maybe will help people understand.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, please.
Azul Terronez:
We treat book writing like artistry. So which means I’ll be vulnerable here. I’m dyslexic. Reading is a really difficult for me. Writing is not even that much easier. And I couldn’t read, even after third grade, I flunked freshman English at UCLA. And yet I became an English teacher nonetheless, now a book coach, a principal, a university faculty member. But what I realized was that we have taught writing incorrectly, or at least what we think is writing doesn’t work as a creative process.
And here’s what I mean. Most of our life, we treat writing like editing. So we’re given an assignment in school and we go, okay great. I’m going to write that paper. And the better you are at the task to write that paper, the better the grade or how much effort you put to get the grade. So we’re trained to be editors. What do I need to do to get a good enough to get that mark? That response? We edit, we write, we edit, we write, we edit. We don’t ever look for clarity. We’re trying to get the paper done for the professor, for the assignment, for our boss, but we don’t treat it like a creative process.
And unfortunately, we’re trained editors, not trained writers. Writing is a creative endeavor. It’s a beautiful artistic endeavor where you’re looking for the words that share what you really feel inside, which is what you do when you paint is what you do when you sculpt words or just the clay but so many times people think the words, aren’t the thing. So our job is to say, well if we’re thinking of this as the message of expression, what would it be? If it wasn’t words, what would it look like?
So we make people draw, no words, use images, pictures, color, show me what this book looks like if it were done. So our first step is to unpack that and what we find is that people see the book for the first time as a living thing on the page, as a visual, they can start to get clarity about the book. Dana Malstaff who’s one of our clients, she had the podcast, I actually met her from one a Pat Flynn’s event like five, six years ago. She had a podcast called Expand Your Reach, had a blog named the same thing. She’s a content strategist, how to help entrepreneurs build their content strategy.
She left corporate when she had her first child, didn’t go back when she was pregnant with her second figured she could grow her business by writing a book. It makes logical sense. Perfect, rising star story so I can get known. When we were doing the visual map, I made her draw out what this book could be. I say could be because let’s just be imaginative. When she drew it out what happened is on the page. She had this thing, it was a bucket with a heart. I said, “What’s this bucket here?” She says, “That’s my love bucket.” I said, “Well, what’s a love bucket got to do with it?” I just realized it’s a Tina Turner to reference, what does the love have to do with expanding your reach? She says, “Well, that’s for moms.” I said, “Well, what about moms? What does that have to do with it?”
She says, “Well I feel like moms get a bad rap. They feel guilty if they love their business more than their kids.” She goes, “Dads don’t feel that way. Dad’s will go golf on Tuesday and call it work and feel great. Moms feel guilty if they step out for a drink with their girlfriends, or talking business they feel like a terrible mom. Or moms feel like they don’t love their kids. They’re terrible because they don’t want to hang out with boogers and barf all day.” She goes, “I don’t think that’s true.” She went on to declare this with all she could boss moms. What’s a boss mom? She goes, “Mom’s that don’t care about that. They don’t think of their work that way. They love their businesses just as much as their kids and sometimes even more because love is infinite.”
And I was like, “Huh.” And she looked at me. She goes, “You’re going to make me do this again aren’t you?” I said, “I’m just curious why you spend 20 minutes talking about a love bucket that has nothing to do about content strategy. You really seem really fired up about this.” So she redid the visual map, drawing out the visual process of the book. And she wrote the book, Boss Mom. She built an incredible community of 70,000 engaged followers. She does workshops all over, she’s peers with the people she used to admire. That’s what happens when you get clarity. And that’s what we do. We help people see their book before they write it. So the words don’t get in the way.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s such a beautiful story. And I had heard of Dana, but I never knew that about her message. And now I’m like, oh, maybe she should come on the podcast. Walk us through another example. So Patty Lennon has been a guest on the show and I know she has worked with you both. And which book did she write?
Azul Terronez:
I can’t reveal her book completely because she’s hasn’t published yet, but she’s got such a strong sales background. Like she’s a beautiful coach to help people grow their sales. She’s got a beautiful processor, so she’s written books before. So it wasn’t that she wasn’t familiar with writing, but she said, “I don’t want to be known for the things that I wrote before. In fact, I can’t escape being that woman in that book. I want to write a book that’s meaningful.” So this is how a book for one season, isn’t the book for the next season.
As you move from each level, you realize I need a different book. Perhaps I need a stronger message. Her book that she’s starting to find her way in has to do with this notion of finding space for that magic in your life. That sometimes you don’t let room in and I think being who you are can push that out. It’s a beautiful conversation. And that came about sort of the same way with the visual processing. It was like it fell out of the universe into her lap. But that process happens when you slow down and use art as an expression for visualizing a book. It’s almost you’re manifesting it through your visual, seeing it first, and the words get to catch up from within you later.
Miriam Schulman:
I love that. And by the way, I don’t think it’s dyslexia, but I have some sort of audiological processing as well. I like mixed numbers up.
Azul Terronez:
Dysgraphia, yeah.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah.
Steve Vannoy:
I want to add to what Azul shared that I think he may gloss over or just doesn’t talk about himself because it’s part of his magic as a coach is really to guide the authors that we work with through a transformational process. And often it’s their transformation during writing this book and through the journey that they have their biggest discoveries about their own uniqueness and their own talent and why they’re so unique and why it’s so important that their message be written by them and not someone else. There’s lots of books that look the same, have the same title, but the only book that you write, that’s the message that you own. There’s there’s what no unique messages, only unique messengers.
Azul Terronez:
Yeah. Jadah Sellner.
Steve Vannoy:
Jadah Sellner. One of our friends and fellow entrepreneurs who said that.
Miriam Schulman:
Do we need to give them credit?
Azul Terronez:
Oh sure, why not. Jadah Seller that point that there are no unique messages, just unique messengers is why we do transformation. Because most people don’t see why they’re great. They see themselves as the skill or the thing that they’re doing that they’re being celebrated with. But what they don’t see is why they are so celebrated. What about them makes them one? Because there’s lots of people who do what you do, but why are you so unique and successful in a way that’s different? And why do you feel called to speak louder than you already are?
There’s a reason it’s not a mistake because you rise above the crowd when you decide I have something I want to say, or I have something I want to learn about that’s bigger than me. So our job is to help the authors transform during the process because if you don’t transform, how do you expect the other people to transform it in the book? It’s just going to be information transactional.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. So now I have like more of a nuts and bolts questions. So you start with this sort of doodling, mind mapping. Do you have, do you have a name for what you call that first step?
Azul Terronez:
Yeah, we call it a visual map.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, then what happens?
Azul Terronez:
So once they do the visual map. We do something called reflecting. We mirror back what we hear them say. So they process with us they tell us what they mean because they’re doodles, drawing. Maybe unlike a lot of your listeners or you, being artistic doesn’t feel natural to them so they often will feel uncomfortable. They’re the only ones who know what that image means. They made me do a symbol, they try to draw a tree. Oftentimes what they think is their inability to draw is actually where the gold lies.
Miriam Schulman:
I was actually worried that as an artist, I would overthink this exercise and try to draw a portrait of you or something like that. Like I would get some sort of performance anxiety that I have to create something masterful because I can.
Azul Terronez:
Great point. So we make them do it time-sensitive. So even if they can do something beautiful over time, we make them do it in a small container of time between 30 and 60 minutes, which sometimes provokes anxiety. We’re like, “Oh good that’s where the goodness is, it’s all right.” So we want them to finish under time-bound constraints because the creativity knows no bounds or time. Their mind might be feeling like, Oh my gosh, I can’t do this.” We’re looking for the images that show up, the colors they choose to use. They won’t notice the patterns that show up on their own because they’re in the work.
So when I’ve noticed things happen, whether people thought they were artists or not, they’ll show me and they’re like, “Tell me, name the symbol so I can see where you’re at and tell me what that means.” And they’ll be like, “This is a tree.” And I’ll say, “Well, tell me what does that mean?” And they’ll tell me what they think it means. And I’m taking notes. But oftentimes when they’re done, I’ll say, “Did you notice when you said here’s the bus that reminds me of this memory, that there were no wheels on the bus?” They’re like, “No.”
Isn’t that interesting? A bus that goes nowhere. “Yeah, that’s how I felt.” I’m like, “Interesting. It’s interesting. Tell me more.” So I’m looking for visual cues that I can ask questions about to be curious about. It’s not about the art. Sometimes it’s about the art that they spent more time on than others. I’ll go, “Why did you, why is the one-fourth of the page this? When you only mentioned it and you went over quickly?” Here’s an example, one client she was doing this exercise right in front of us in real-time and she was describing it to us. And there’s huge almost all the paper on the right side was a rocket ship.
I was like, “What’s this rocket ship?” She goes, “I don’t know. I don’t even know why it’s there.” I go, “You wrote NASA on it, it’s obvious you meant to put it here.” She’s like, “That’s my mom.” I was like, “Tell me more.” She got really upset, I was like, “Are you okay?” She’s like, “I don’t even know why it’s there. I’m kind of mad that she showed up here. She always shows up here.” I’m like, “Oh. Okay, tell me more.” She said, “Look, my mom doesn’t approve of me being an entrepreneur, being an MBA, leaving corporate to do this. She always mentions her sorority sisters who are doctors and one is an astronaut and I should be that. I don’t want to have kids. I don’t want to be married.”
Her mom showed up really loud. It sounds like your subconscious brought this here for you as a gift. And so your logical mind, your left brain would have made a list of an outline. This is what I’m going to write about. I go, “That’s not where the golden things live.” She wrote a book called Loud about silencing your inner critics. She wrote a beautiful book. It wouldn’t have been told without that imagery. We wouldn’t have found the conversation starter within that book.
Miriam Schulman:
Wow. So when do they write the table of contents and an outline? Does that happen with your process? I mean, it sounds very woo so far.
Azul Terronez:
I tell people and Steve can attest this because I make him do this. He has been my test on all of these things. I make him things first. I say most of us were trained like editors, right? So outlines are what editors would look for to see where the pathway is. Outlines are great. They give you a sense of where you’re going, but it’s really hard to say that great journeys start with a plan and a map, but don’t always end that way. Right? So they’re very concrete that be like asking an artist, show me you’re, your step-by-step paint by number plan for this piece of what writing on. But I don’t really have it that way. I think because we’re looking at writing as art we say it’s more within you.
So part of the process is to unpack these pieces slowly. It’s like separating some fine pieces of silk or something. You don’t want to just pull them apart. Creating an outline too soon can do this. Let’s say we’re going to build a path in the backyard from the back door all the way around a tree to a beautiful garden. So say it gets money here it’s not easy to get to. So we’re going to pour a concrete pathway to get there so you know how to go. Makes sense. So you start putting up the wood, putting the sand, pounding it down, pouring it, letting it cure. One of those little segments at a time you realize halfway there, oh, I kinda wanted to go the other way around the tree. Your like, “We got to tear this whole thing up? Forget it just keep going.” Well, if you think of an outline like that, then most authors get stuck in won’t pivot, change, transform in the book.
They’ll do what they saw they had to do. But if you think of them as stones, let’s imagine we’re going to build the same pathway to that beautiful garden around the tree. But we’re going to create stones and take each idea separately and say, this is a beautiful stone and create it with this idea, this notion we’ll set it on the side of the garden. Then let’s create another stone. And we put it on the side of the garden. At the end, we have all these beautiful stones where like, let’s arrange the path, which side of the tree meets the need of our reader the best? Or the person who’s trying to get to the garden to the path at the end? And then we arrange them. How far apart should they step? How close? How many do we need? You start to realize that the outline is the pathway to help the reader. It’s not for you the artist, it’s for the reader. So if the pathway’s not clear, then the reader will get lost, but it’s not the tool for creating.
Steve Vannoy:
And even sometimes some of the stones that are created, just get set aside. They don’t actually make it into the path and that’s okay. We make it safe for a writer to do that and have that flexibility and ease. I think ease is really part of it.
Miriam Schulman:
And then it just becomes a podcast episode.
Steve Vannoy:
Exactly, or a blog.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Steve Vannoy:
Actually, it’s not wasted. It just doesn’t belong in this path. It’s just not need it but that’s a different way of thinking of writing than we were trained in school. It’s a much lighter, joyful, easy you can’t be wrong kind of path versus you’re not doing it right path, which is very concrete. This is how you do it. It’s removing a bunch of the things that we used to do, to do writing and a lot of my colleagues probably would say, not everyone should write a book. And I say, absolutely not, everyone should, because this is how you learn who you are, what you stand for, what you believe in.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, I think there’s some sort of proverb that every person should write a book, have a kid and plant a tree or something like that.
Steve Vannoy:
That would be great if not it’s a [crosstalk 00:35:22].
Miriam Schulman:
I think I made it up. All right, so here is where I was also getting stuck. So not just with the lack of clarity, but my thought, my belief was that you needed an agent to publish it and in order to get an agent, you had to pitch them a book plan with the outline and there’d be a couple of chapters written. So how does that part work? I mean, I know you can self publish, but let’s say somebody comes to you really wants a bigger audience and therefore wants a publisher. Does that fit into your framework?
Steve Vannoy:
Yeah, that’s perfect. No, that’s a great example. I just recently had an agent on my show to talk about this very thing. Agents are trying to pitch, they’re using your book as a tool and they’re trying to sell it as a product. So if you’re hoping to get traditionally published, which is usually movement makers, they’re like, well, what is my message? So the clarity exercises still work. The building out the stones for the pathway still works, but you don’t have to write the whole book to get there. So most of the time, for example, Jadah Sellner the co-founder of Simple Green Smoothies that we mentioned earlier. She has an agent she’s giving her book to a proposal that she’s going to pitch. The book proposal is 40 pages long. The book proposal is mainly half of it is how are you going to sell this book?
Because remember you’re pitching a product, the book is a product. So they want to know what’s your social media? How many in your following? How many do your podcasts reach? Who are your peers? How are you going to sell this thing? The other half is how is it marketable to an audience? A bigger, broader audience, right? A trailblazer is going to write a niche book for an audience. A movement maker is writing a broad book that has appealed to the masses. So what you’re going to do is do the same process for creation and then you assemble the book for a proposal.
The agent most likely will take the book proposal and tweak it to the publishers They’re going to pitch. So the process is the same returning to the writing is the same. But when our authors have an agent or their pitching agent, then we just help them get clarity about what they’re really trying to say so that the agent doesn’t shape what they’re trying to say. That they’re really clear because their agent’s going to look for an angle. The more clear the author is, the easier it is for them to stand fast and say, “Nope. I really think this is the angle I want to go. Here’s my audience by avatar my readers. Why I think I can sell this.” They have more legs to stand on when they’re clear.
Miriam Schulman:
All right, this has been so valuable. Thank you so much for spending this time with me here today. So if you were as juiced up as I am about what these two guys have to say, now you’re not both on the podcast, right?
Azul Terronez:
Oh, the Authors Who Lead podcast?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah.
Azul Terronez:
No that’s me.
Miriam Schulman:
I’m so lucky. I got both of you? Wow, I’m so honored. All right. So the Authors Who Lead Podcast on every podcasting app, then mostly use you speak to authors, agents, and?
Azul Terronez:
People who want to write a book. Leaders who want to craft a message. So I just interviewed a New York Times, best selling author today from Big Leap, and wrote a book called Conscious Luck. So you can hear behind the scenes of what these authors are doing when they’re writing books, how it comes about and whether or not they use an agent, did they self publish, why they choose to do that. So it’s like really a behind the scenes look of why this book and why are they the ones who write it.
Miriam Schulman:
Perfect. Okay. Do you have any last words for our listeners before we call this episode complete?
Azul Terronez:
Look, we’re all selling sunshine. We’re all sharing gifts that other people are sharing. We’re not writing something new as far as content goes, content is the sunshine it’s out there available and free. But people aren’t searching for sunshine because it’s everywhere. You can’t say “My Sunshine’s over here. Look at this circle on the ground, buy my sunshine, or go over there and buy his sunshine.” It’s this oval, it’s just sunshine and that sometimes people focus on the content.
I want you to focus on something else. When I was a kid, I had a magnifying glass and you could hold it over a piece of paper or a friend’s leg, or maybe an aunt. I owe some karma for the ants that I destroyed, but you can light it. It’s the same lens. Transforms the sunshine into a focused light. You are the lens. You’re the one the world’s waiting for, not the sunshine. So go find out why you’re the unique one in the world to write this book.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s so beautiful. Thank you so much for spending this time here with me today.
Azul Terronez:
Thank you for having us.
Steve Vannoy:
Yeah, thank you for sharing the space with us. It’s wonderful.
Miriam Schulman:
In the interview, I talk about what I said was a Jewish proverb about every man should plant a tree, have a child, and write a book. And after the interview was over, I actually did do some research to track it down. Was it a proverb? What is it? And it’s actually in the Talmud. The Talmud is kind of like the Jewish law and interpretation of the Torah. What it talks about and of course, it’s very masculine, but I’m going to give you my feminist interpretation.
They say, every man should have a son plant a tree and write a book. Of course, I flipped that a little bit, or I tweaked it a little bit. Every person should have a child planting a tree and write a book. Those three fundamental values it’s about the importance of family, the importance of environmentalism, as well as the importance of writing down history on our stories. So the Jewish tradition, Jewish people were known as people of the book.
So that is a very important part of our heritage. If you do a quick Google search though, you’re going to also see some other people who have taken this up and done their own tweaks on it. So the Cuban poet, Jose Marti, and I didn’t find the poem actually where he talks about it, but he is also credited with talking about having a child, planting a tree, and writing a book that is a poet worth checking out. I believe he’s from the 19th century. And then the third person to check out is our friend, Ernest Hemingway. So he took those three things and then he added to it so that every man should not only write a book, but they should wrestle a bull. So of course that’s Ernest Hemingway’s take on it.
So I just thought this was interesting enough that I wanted to create an epilogue and share that. Furthermore, I wanted to share that the day after I recorded this interview, I was listening to my friend, Suzy Ashworth’s podcast, definitely worth checking her out Limitless Life podcast. She’s going to be a guest on the show. And she was talking as well about her desire to write a book in 2020 and how she’s going to write one and what stopped her was pretty much what I had said in my podcast about how she wasn’t clear on her message. And then she realized that she didn’t need to be clear because whatever the message was for 2020, she could write that book. And then in 2021 write a different book. I thought that was so brilliant. And I was so inspired that actually on the Saturday following this interview, I outlined my book.
And so my book is now outlined. I pulled in 14 of my favorite podcast episodes. I took the transcripts. I now have drafted what’s basically 14 chapters for my book and it’s about a 50,000-word book. I just need to polish it. I’m going to be polishing it up during my vacation in August. And I also made a shortlist of literary agents. I’m going to be contacting and pitching so they could help me with reaching out to publishers. So that’s the game plan. I’m going to give myself a couple of months to find an agent. If I don’t connect with an agent, I will move forward though with self-publishing this book. And even if I do find an agent and we’re not able to connect with a publisher, I will move forward with publishing this book. I do want to try to do it through one of the big five publishers first because it just will be a better way to expand my reach with this book.
And I really want to have the marketing budget behind it so I can reach as many people as possible. So that’s the plan. I thought that I wanted to just bring you aboard with this journey so you can be included and we’ll be giving you updates about this project during this year. All right. So next week is episode number 100 and I have a very special episode planned. We’re so excited to have been podcasting for nearly two years now, and I hope you won’t miss it. So make sure you’re following and subscribed to the podcast and by the way if you want me to give you a shout out over on Instagram stories just take a screenshot of your phone playing this episode now and tag me. I’m @schulmanart over on IG. Or you could also just send me a direct message and let me know what you loved most about the show.
All right guys, thank you so much for being with me here today, I’ll see you same time, same place next week. Make it a great one.
Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place Podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at Facebook.com/schulmanart. On Instagram @schulmanart and of course on schulmanart.com.
Miriam Schulman:
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