THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Miriam Schulman:
Well hello, this is your host, artist Miriam Schulman and you’re listening to episode number 105 of the Inspiration Place podcast. I am so honored that you’re here. Today we’re talking all about what to say when you want to sell an art class or maybe your art.
So to help me out with that, I’ve invited an amazing copywriter to talk to me. Do you feel like you need to be in the mood or be inspired or have something big and awesome to say or you need flowery language? That is what we’re here to talk about today.
So in this episode, you’ll discover the counter-intuitive secret to getting your creativity flowing so you can come up with endless ideas for your Instagram captions, emails, and social media posts. How to blast through blank page syndrome and feel confident about your writing and by the way this works especially well when you have no time to write.
We’ll also talk about the three biggest mistakes artists make when they’re trying to write and the legal cheating way to have inspiration on demand. Plus my guest’s number one rule of writing words that will help you sell more art and more spots in your art classes.
And like I hinted before we’re going to talk about why you don’t need to use flowery language to sell your art and of course, we’ll talk about what really works. Today’s guest is an expert copywriter, copy coach, and epiphany creator with a background in creative writing and over 14 years of experience she’s worked with industry leaders like Ryan Levesque, Todd Herman, Josh Turner, Selena Sue and more. Oh and me. She’s also worked with me.
She’s the best-kept secret until now. Her elegant, narrative-driven and conversation focused copy has brought in tens of millions in sales. Well, I’m not making that but she’s helped me make a lot of money. Brought in tens of millions of sales for her clients which is why she is otherwise known as the launch expert.
Our guest also coaches business owners, oh this is where I come in, to write their own effective copy, nurture their confidence, creativity and productivity with her one on one coaching, Copy Lab membership program, and self-paced courses. Please welcome to the Inspiration Place Daniel Weil. Well hello, Danielle and welcome to the show.
Danielle Weil:
Thank you for having me, it’s great to be here.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. Actually, I moved you up on the calendar because yesterday one of my Artist Incubator members, she’s offering an art class and she says, “Well what do you have to say? Farm animals and that’s it?” It’s like, “No. You have to tell them why they need the class.” So I told her don’t worry I’m recording this with you and they’re going to get the information soon, so let’s dive in it and talk about it because I know that-
Danielle Weil:
100%.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, my students really need this. Thank you so much for being here.
Danielle Weil:
Awesome.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay so let’s start off with that limiting self-belief Danielle about writing flowery language and do you know what they’re talking about when they say that?
Danielle Weil:
You know I have to make something that is super compelling and super hypie and sounds like the best thing in the world and go on and on. Right? That kind of, it has to be perfect. It has to sound amazing. I think that’s what you’re talking about, right?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. You know what, I never asked them what they mean by that but I’ve heard it several times, that exact phrase. I think they meant sugary when they talk about the art that has all of these extra adjectives and words maybe.
Danielle Weil:
Well because extra adjectives and all the superlatives, this is the best, that’s actually the opposite of what you want to do in copy and my approach to writing is kind of clean, elegant, straight forward. My background is in creative writing so every word that you’re writing should be there for a reason, right?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah.
Danielle Weil:
So you don’t have to put in the lots of extra words that don’t need to be there. The other cool thing about writing to sell whether it’s more of your art or courses is that simple language works.
Miriam Schulman:
There’s got to be some happy medium between the belief that I have to write flowery language and then the belief that I just have to put the name of the course and a price.
Danielle Weil:
Absolutely.
Miriam Schulman:
So is there somewhere in between?
Danielle Weil:
There is somewhere in between. The way that like to talk about it is talking about a bridge that you’re taking someone across. On one side of the bridge is someone whipping out their credit card and going, “Yes please take my money.” The other side of the bridge are those people, your ideal collectors, your ideal people waiting over there for you to take them across. And it’s your job with the words that you use to build that bridge for them and make it really, really easy for them to walk across.
Miriam Schulman:
So how do you do that?
Danielle Weil:
How do you do that? This is when I talk about creating a narrative, a sales narrative. It sounds intimidating, it’s not. There are four parts to it. Part one is where your ideal collectors are right now. Where are they? What are they feeling? What are they experiencing? What do they want? Painting that picture.
Miriam Schulman:
Let’s do it this way today because we’ve been talking inside my free Facebook page, The Artist Profit Lab. We’re talking a lot about building art classes right now. So why don’t we do it if they’re trying to sell an art class? Whether that is an in-person class because COVID is over or an online class because that will be for a lot of my listeners, that they do teach art whether it’s online or in person. Can we pretend it’s an art class?
Danielle Weil:
100%.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay.
Danielle Weil:
You know and when we were writing some of your pages for your classes we talked about this as well.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah but let’s not do it for me, lets pretend we’re doing it for your mother. So Danielle’s mother is an artist.
Danielle Weil:
She is, yes.
Miriam Schulman:
What kind of art does your mom do?
Danielle Weil:
My mom works a lot with acrylics and textures. She came to visit before the world went crazy and she came and my husband bought her a canvas. A huge big white canvas. She was here for a week. He asked really, really nicely if she would paint us something for the wall and she sat down and it took her-
Miriam Schulman:
He won a lot of points with his mother in law that day.
Danielle Weil:
100%. And she was so excited and she sat down and she painted this amazing view of our sunset. We actually live right on, well not on the beach but we can see the Mediterranean from my office window.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, and could you tell everybody where you live? You went to NYU, you’re from Florida-
Danielle Weil:
I went to NYU, I grew up in Florida, I live in Israel.
Miriam Schulman:
So cool.
Danielle Weil:
Yes. I’ve lived here for the past 12 years. I can see the Mediterranean outside of my window. My mother painted this view, it was just gorgeous colors of the view outside our window.
Miriam Schulman:
Let’s pretend your mom now wants to teach an art class painting the landscape with acrylics. Which may not be the name of the class but that’s what we’re dealing with.
Danielle Weil:
So think about the ideal person who would want to take this class. Where are they in life? What do they want? What do they want to get out of it? Because it’s not just, “Oh I want to learn how to paint this thing.” That’s the surface level. What will that do for them? What’s the emotion behind it?
Miriam Schulman:
Okay so let me help you out with that since I seem to know a lot about people who want to take art classes. So Danielle’s mother lives in Florida as does my mom. We haven’t established if they live in the same neighborhood or anything right?
Danielle Weil:
Not yet. We have not played Jewish geography yet.
Miriam Schulman:
No. My mom lives on Ocean Boulevard or whatever that thing is called down there.
Danielle Weil:
Oh A1A? Close by.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, okay. We should visit at the same time. So let’s pretend that your mom, she can teach in her community center all these women who are quarantined or stuck in Florida. Well, they’re not in lock-down anymore but my mom was so bored out of her mind in April and May. She was crawling the walls.
So I used to think about her whenever I was selling art classes, people not necessarily in Florida but that were in lock-down or looking for something to do because they’re stuck at home. So let’s use that as our customers.
Danielle Weil:
Okay. So, someone who’s stuck, they’re feeling maybe stressed by the situation. They want a connection. They want a way to process emotions, a way to escape. So these are all of these things that you can kind of sit down and maybe jot down a couple of points what is someone looking to think or feel as they go through? What do they really want?
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. So for your mom, it’s teaching landscape so maybe it’s the going into that imaginary adventure. Of going through the paintings you can travel through your imagination by painting other scenes?
Danielle Weil:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Miriam Schulman:
I mean I know that’s why I like to paint landscapes.
Danielle Weil:
Yeah, that’s great.
Miriam Schulman:
So Danielle I was also thinking about my pet portrait academy and the emotions about why people want to learn how to paint pets is because they love their pets and their pets are part of their family. Would that be step one of the process? Or am I jumping ahead?
Danielle Weil:
It is. It’s really figuring out before you come with the solution, here’s how my art class is going to solve the problem. It’s really first identifying what the problem, what the core desires are. It’s kind of thinking about it matching your ideal student over here, what they want, and then how are you going to come and fulfill that? What is unique about your class? The way you teach? Your style? The subject matter that is going to fulfill that for them and making sure that they match. It might just be easier if I walk through the whole narrative and then we can break down each piece.
Miriam Schulman:
Perfect, let’s do that. And we decided to drop mother’s imaginary course in case she’s listening.
Danielle Weil:
Hi mom.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay.
Danielle Weil:
So first step, Pet Portrait Academy, someone who wants to paint, they want to get better at painting portraits and they want to get better at painting their pets because they love their pets and they want a way to capture that and have those memories.
If you want to learn how to paint your fur babies and have memories and express your love for your pets through art, I get it, that’s the second step is the, I get it step. Why are you the one to teach them? I get it, I am someone who has taught portraits for X, Y, Z years. I have seen so many students who want to do this and who are excited about doing it yet they don’t necessarily have the tools or the skills or the confidence to do it in the way that they want to.
Miriam Schulman:
Step one is the problem, step two basically says I understand your problem?
Danielle Weil:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, that’s correct.
Danielle Weil:
That’s exactly right.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, let’s go to step three.
Danielle Weil:
Step three is here is the solution. Here’s what I discovered and why it’s unique. So step three is Pet Portrait Academy is a simple way to learn how to paint your fur babies, your pets, your loved ones because. And here’s where you pull in the way that you teach unique. What is that one thing that makes your course special or different? And it’s okay, it can take some time to get to this and that’s okay but think about, and it might help to ask someone else actually because it’s sort of hard to see your own perspective. So it might be worth asking someone who knows you well who knows what you teach and how you teach. Or your students if you’ve taught art before, what is unique about the way that you teach and that will help reflect back.
Miriam Schulman:
I feel like there’s two levels to that unique approach. So it’s kind of like just using weight loss because it’s so easy. You know if I were to do an exercise class that was a toning class versus an exercise class that was the Pilates method, so the one level is your doing a certain way of teaching that maybe you haven’t figured out what your unique framework is and then there’s the next level, I understand the unique framework that really makes may stuff special.
I don’t want my listeners who maybe are just starting out teaching to feel that they can’t start selling and art class just because they don’t have the Pilates method or whatever that framework is in place yet because you can certainly offer art classes and sell them without fully understanding yourself yet what it is that makes your special sauce in teaching. Do you agree with that Danielle what I’m saying?
Danielle Weil:
Yeah. The special sauce is something that develops over time. It will only come out once you start teaching. You can’t just sort of make it up out of thin air and decide okay this is going to be my method. It happens the more that you teach, the more you put yourself out there, taking action is better than waiting for this perfect thing to happen.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah and then really you could just say the Schulman method, to use myself as an example because really what’s the Pilates method? Well, it’s Joseph Pilates, it’s his last name. So it’s like that’s all it is.
Danielle Weil:
Yeah. You’re you, your unique. The way that you teach is unique. The way that you look at the world, the way that you create art is unique and that’s what people will be attracted to. So we’re on step three.
Miriam Schulman:
So problem is one, understanding your problem is two, step three is I have a solution for you.
Danielle Weil:
Step four is here is what it is.
Miriam Schulman:
Got it.
Danielle Weil:
And here’s where you talk about the class and how it works and how it’s going to fulfill that need, want, desire that we talked about in step one.
Miriam Schulman:
Beautiful.
Danielle Weil:
So this is not actually what we chatted about chatting about at all.
Miriam Schulman:
No, it’s not.
Danielle Weil:
Is it useful?
Miriam Schulman:
Yes. This is extremely useful because last night during the Artist Incubator, I told you, my students, they don’t know what to write, to say how to sell their art classes. So the one student I have in mind, in particular, she even had an in-person studio, she’s transitioning to online. So the issue isn’t that it’s an online class or an in-person class, it’s what do you put on your website? Or what do you put in your sales brochure to describe the class? You can’t just say, “Child’s art class.” You really have to say okay it’s from 8:00 to 12:00 or whatever it is and what is it they’re going to get out of taking it with you.
Danielle Weil:
Right. And that’s another important thing to remember is that as you’re describing your class you might talk about what you’re going to learn, the techniques you’re going to teach right? Okay, so I’m going to teach you how to paint with acrylics. I’m going to teach you how to whatever the specific techniques are but don’t forget the benefits. Don’t forget the transformation that will happen. Don’t forget what’s driving someone to go sign up for your course is not so that they can acquire techniques A, B, C. That might be what they say they want but what’s driving them is the emotion underneath. It’s I want to feel fulfilled by my painting. I want to be more confident. I want to feel like I’m improving. I want to be able to paint my loved ones. I want to create memories. I want to relieve stress. Whatever it is for your people be sure that you speak to that in your description.
Miriam Schulman:
And I would also say that for my two clients I’m thinking about right now who teach children’s art classes, even though the student is the child, the client is the parent would you agree with that? So you really have to sell the parent on the benefits for this class. Like how it’s going to make them more calm, it’s going to help them process the emotions. So it’s a slightly nuanced approach. Could you speak a little bit about that?
Danielle Weil:
So that’s what happens when there is two different people. So the decision-maker is not the person who’s actually going through the class. And that’s okay. That happens in a lot of different fields or industries where the parent is the one making decisions. So you’re really speaking to the parent in a way, like here are the benefits for the kids, and here are the benefits for you as well. It’s a delicate balance but you’re speaking to both in the same way. What will the person taking the class get out of it? What will they think, feel, take away, experience?
Miriam Schulman:
If I were signing up my child for an online art class right now I would want to know how much the parent has to be involved. Like does this mean now I have to supervise my kid? I’m pointing this out because you have to get into the mind of the person who is going to pay, the parent. What things that might be objections for them of signing their child up for an art class. Whether it’s in person on or online or anything. Whether it’s in person or online is, is this age-appropriate?
Danielle Weil:
It’s interesting that you bring up this concept of objections. Because they’re always going to be with any buying decision or any decision really, there are going to be objections that come up in your mind. What I like to do with my clients is an exercise of thinking through and making a list of all of the things that your ideal customer, student, client needs to believe in order to buy. What do they need to believe? And it could be things big or small. Make that list. They need to believe that they can do it. They need to believe that it’s going to be emotionally rewarding. They need to believe they don’t have to get involved. All of those things are your objections and then once you have that list as you go or writing your description lets say or writing your post, you can answer them in a way that just feels natural.
Miriam Schulman:
Hey, I’m so sorry to interrupt this juicy conversation but I wanted to make sure you knew that I do have room inside the Artist Incubator program. If you’re lacking a solid strategy and a winning mindset and you’re disappointed with your current art sales, I can help you. If you’ve been listening to this podcast and you’ve found my tips helpful then maybe it’s time to take the next logical step and work with me on a deeper level.
The Artist Incubator program is for artists who want to take their art business to the next level. If you’re ready to invest in your art career and join a dynamic community of artists who are doing the same thing go to schulmanart.com/biz as in B-I-Z to apply now. Those who qualify will get a free strategy call with me. Just go to schulmanart.com/biz. Now back to the show.
Now, let’s go back to our Pet Portrait Academy. Now I had to sit down and write something from scratch, maybe it’s an email to my list about the class and I just feel so stuck and I have no confidence about what to say. I know you have a technique for blasting through that.
Danielle Weil:
I do.
Miriam Schulman:
Thank God. I thought you were going to say you misunderstood my notes here.
Danielle Weil:
The number one rule is never write from scratch.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, when you say that, that makes me think that like am I copying? Explain that.
Danielle Weil:
No. No. Important caveat. You do not want to copy, plagiarize anybody. What you want to do is get inspiration from things that are working out there. So if you see an email that really got your attention that you liked, even if it’s not about art, even if it’s about something else.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay so by the way, I tell my incubator clients, it’s better when it’s not about art because that way you’re not plagiarizing.
Danielle Weil:
Much better, exactly.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, like subscribe to Anthropologie or Kate Spade or whatever and see what they’re doing. Okay, go ahead.
Danielle Weil:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So that’s one way to break through a blank page, is have a file where you save things that you like and then use those as jumping-off points to model the style. Just like art. If you’re creating a painting you have an idea. Maybe you take inspiration from a sunset scene outside your window but the painting that you actually create is inspired by but doesn’t exactly, exactly resemble the sunset. It’s your interpretation of it.
So you can model things that are working and are successful without copying them but having something on the page to being with giving yourself a starting off point is an easier way in than just looking at the blank cursor going beep, beep, beep, what do I write? The other thing that I like to do myself to just power through so to speak when I’m feeling stuck and I’ve got a lot to write is what I call the asterisk trick.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, what’s that? Wait how do I not know about that?
Danielle Weil:
I’m sure that you’ve seen me do it. It’s the just keep swimming. So it’s just keep writing.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh right, right. That’s like you put a pin in it like you don’t stop?
Danielle Weil:
Right. You don’t stop, you keep going. If you don’t have a word you can’t think of, like oh I want to say this thing or there should be something here about such and such you’ll put an asterisk there and just keep going. And then by the time you come back and fill it in, usually you’ll know what should be there. You don’t stop and get stuck and spend 10 minutes trying to think of the right word you just keep going and your brain is kind of in the background working on what that word should be by the time you come back to it. It’s sort of there for you.
Miriam Schulman:
Nice. So that’s true of life in general. If you’re stuck making a decision just tell your brain to go to work on it later and go on and do something else. Don’t you agree Danielle?
Danielle Weil:
100%. What I like to do is go take a shower. I do my best thinking in the shower.
Miriam Schulman:
Right because you don’t have your phone in there.
Danielle Weil:
Well, that too. Or washing dishes. I have four kids, my sink is always full of dishes. There’s always something to wash especially now that they’re all home so I’ll go and ring down the level in the sink as I’m thinking. Usually, I’ll have something by the time I can see the bottom of the sink.
Miriam Schulman:
And then the counter-intuitive secret to get your creativity flowing is that also don’t write from scratch?
Danielle Weil:
No. That is-
Miriam Schulman:
Oh okay good, something else.
Danielle Weil:
… Something else. You don’t necessarily have an idea what you want to write. You know what you want to talk about so you know you want to talk about your art class, you want to talk about the work that you’re doing. That’s eventually where you want to get people to but you’re not sure where to get started. So what I like to do is give myself a limited amount of time to write. The counter-intuitive part of this is when you give yourself constraints you actually free yourself up to be more creative and you’ll often do better work. They did a study about you had 300 choices of jam versus six choices of jam and people bought more when they had fewer choices.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, 100%. I’m always telling my artists that if they have too many choices it actually hurts their sales.
Danielle Weil:
Right. So if you are thinking I could write about anything and I’ve got a whole bunch of time to sit down and I’ll just write whenever, no. You have 20 minutes. You set a timer and you pick one thing to write about. Because I believe you can write about anything. It’s just a matter of choosing that thing and sometimes you don’t choose it, it chooses you.
Miriam Schulman:
You’re probably going to answer this but I’m always jealous of those people out there who they write a story about how they ate a tuna sandwich and then suddenly now they’re selling you the course on how to create a webinar. It’s like, whoa how did they get there? And how come I don’t have tuna sandwich stories.
Danielle Weil:
How did they get there?
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Danielle Weil:
So it does take practice. I’m not here to say, “Well okay this is super easy to do.” Although it is definitely a skill worth acquiring and I break down how to do it in the gift that I have for everyone.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh yeah, let’s drop that URL right now. Danielle generously put together a freebie for us.
Danielle Weil:
A creativity blockbuster.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes. And you can get that at dwcopy.com/TIP and by the way, in case you don’t know, TIP stands for The Inspiration Place. I thought it stood for tip by the way. I was like, “Oh that’s nice. It’s a tip.”
Danielle Weil:
Also, a tip, yes.
Miriam Schulman:
Holy cow this is a really generous resource, so dwcopy.com/TIP.
Danielle Weil:
Okay so how do you write emails or write posts or write about your tuna sandwich?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, I don’t eat tuna sandwiches, by the way, I don’t know where I came up with that.
Danielle Weil:
I don’t either. I’m not a big fan of tuna.
Miriam Schulman:
No, no.
Danielle Weil:
I wrote an email recently about how my husband rolls the toothpaste tube and I don’t.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh. Luckily my husband and I both just squeeze the heck out of it, no rolling.
Danielle Weil:
Right. So you can write about anything. You might be thinking, okay well what is someone reading going to care about whether you roll the toothpaste or not.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, I never understood how they get from rolling the toothpaste to Pet Portrait academy.
Danielle Weil:
It’s all about the lesson. It’s all about finding the connection between the story, the thing that happened to you. The underwater deep-sea diving or whatever your topic is that you are choosing to tell the story about and where you want someone to go. So before you write, think about where is it that I want someone to get to? What’s the goal of what I’m writing? And then you know where you’re going right? It’s like putting into the GPS well okay I’m going to the grocery store, that’s my destination and you know the path to get there. You kind of know where you have to take people in your story.
Miriam Schulman:
That still sounds really hard to me.
Danielle Weil:
That sounds hard huh?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. I don’t know how to get them to the moral of the story. I mean do you recommend that we keep a story bank? Because I do tell a lot of stories, I just never know how to pick one out of the air. You know, like I tell the story about the shark. Actually, my listeners haven’t heard that story.
Danielle Weil:
Tell the story about the shark.
Miriam Schulman:
There’s no story. I told you the story, I saw a shark and now I’m afraid to go into the water again which is kind of silly because they tell you when to get out of the water because they know when there’s a shark coming because they have sonar to get ready. Okay, I’m trying to do this very imperfectly. Am I the lifeguard of the art class? Like trying to help make sure they don’t get eaten by sharks or am I doing this all wrong? Danielle’s making such a face at me like I just handed her a tuna sandwich.
Danielle Weil:
No this is so fun. Okay, so the shark.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, the shark.
Danielle Weil:
What were you feeling when you saw the shark? That’s the trick. The trick is to always go back to the emotion.
Miriam Schulman:
Danielle knows what I’m talking about but I was on vacation last week and there was a fricking shark 50 yards from shore. Like actually in the shallow water where I was swimming the day before. I was completely freaked out. Now they had cleared the beach in case you’re wondering, it wasn’t like the movies where everyone screamed and ran out, like a warning before the shark came. There was some woman down the beach who was still in the water. I wish they had gotten her out of the water, she looked like lunch down there in the water. Is that not a good story? Because there’s no ending there?
Danielle Weil:
That’s a great story.
Miriam Schulman:
I think so too and I can’t wait to use it.
Danielle Weil:
It’s a great story.
Miriam Schulman:
I want to use it.
Danielle Weil:
So the story itself think about-
Miriam Schulman:
I’m like a mental patient telling it over and over again to people. I saw a shark.
Danielle Weil:
It doesn’t have to have a beginning, middle, and end. It can literally be just one day there was no shark in the water and the next day there was a shark and it was terrifying. What happened?
Miriam Schulman:
It was terrifying but it was thrilling at the same time. I was really oh I got to see it, you know that feeling?
Danielle Weil:
What is that feeling of being terrifying and thrilling at the same time and what does that have to do with maybe painting something new?
Miriam Schulman:
That’s exactly what it feels like to paint something new. It is terrifying and thrilling at the same time. You nailed it.
Danielle Weil:
So the trick is to think not about the story and this happened and then that happened and then this happened and what’s it like and what’s the analogy? Think about the feeling and how you can take that feeling or thought or lesson and relate it to what you do or where you’re going.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. But am I right to think that where I’m going is I’m the lifeguard in this metaphor? Like for my art students? Like I’m going to make sure that they don’t actually get eaten by a shark?
Danielle Weil:
Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
As long as they’re staying in those 200 yards that is being guarded by the shore? But that woman who was past that area that was in that area clueless, I don’t know what her problem was but I seriously, Danielle, I really wanted to go down the beach, run down here and pull her out of the water. I didn’t understand why she was in there and why nobody was doing anything about this very juicy snack down there.
Danielle Weil:
Painting something new is both thrilling and terrifying at the same time. Learning a new skill.
Miriam Schulman:
Well that woman down the shore is like the people who don’t sign up for the art class and is trying to do it on their own, is that right? Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Danielle Weil:
Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
All right.
Danielle Weil:
So it can feel scary but also really exciting at the same time. It can almost be like you’ve got to stay in the safe zone and you’ve got to have someone looking out for you and walking you through it. Telling you where is okay, where is not okay. Where there be sharks.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, and by the way, I know people are wondering, this was an 11-foot shark. It was a white shark, you know the great white. The same kind in the movies. It was just as scary as the movies seeing this thing. It just kind of rose from the… I said, “Where is it? Where is it?” And somebody pointed and you could see it rise from the deep and all of a sudden you could see the dark outline and the fin and it’s like very quiet and moving quickly.
Danielle Weil:
Now I’m getting scared.
Miriam Schulman:
I know, it was like whoa. What mistakes do you see artists make? Did you see me already running into anything there with a mistake?
Danielle Weil:
I think the biggest mistake is not thinking about the emotion involved. It’s staying on the surface.
Miriam Schulman:
Right like not thinking about the shark. This is the class, this is the price.
Danielle Weil:
You have to meet someone where they are.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay.
Danielle Weil:
Because people make decisions, they buy based on emotion. They don’t necessarily buy based on logic. Even if they say they do, there’s always some component of emotion involved. They want again, I’m going to learn this Y, Z. They want how that’s going to make them feel. So if you can speak to that and then they trust you to take them there, they trust you to give them that feeling, make them feel safe, be the lifeguard for them.
Miriam Schulman:
By the way, this is totally ruining our analogy, I did not feel safe going back in the water the next day. That was very uncomfortable for me. I was like, no there was a shark here yesterday. I don’t think I can go back in.
Danielle Weil:
Yeah, that kind of ruins the analogy.
Miriam Schulman:
Right, I know. No, but there were other people going in and they knew there were sharks. They had these big signs everywhere saying there are lots of sharks in this ocean.
Danielle Weil:
So here’s the question, do you trust the lifeguard to look out for you?
Miriam Schulman:
I know. I do and I should. I mean honestly, they have this buoy that checks for sonar that lets you know way before the sharks get close enough to actually eat you. I mean that’s the whole point is swimming-
Danielle Weil:
You would want to say.
Miriam Schulman:
I mean all those stories you hear about that woman in Maine who got eaten by a shark. I don’t think the shark ate her but she died because the shark attacked her. It’s because she wasn’t swimming in a lifeguard beach. Usually, those are the people who get bitten by sharks is because they were doing their 8:00 am swim.
Danielle Weil:
So to take the analogy one step further you would want to tell people like “Hey.” Plus we’ve got the sonar looking out for you to make sure that you get alerted when there are sharks. We’ve got lifeguards 24/7. We’ve got-
Miriam Schulman:
A Facebook group.
Danielle Weil:
Right. Here are all the ways we’re going to make sure you do not get eaten by the shark.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s right and lifetime access. Okay so three mistakes, so one mistake is not talking about emotion. Number two?
Danielle Weil:
Number two is skipping the steps. Right. So it is-
Miriam Schulman:
So the four steps we talked about before.
Danielle Weil:
Right. And forgetting the benefits.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s number three, forgetting the benefits?
Danielle Weil:
That’s number three, is forgetting the benefits.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah that’s huge.
Danielle Weil:
Even if let’s say your selling paintings and it just feels like, oh, yeah someone sees it, they like it, they don’t like it, they resonate with it, they don’t. But there’s more to it than that. It’s, is it going to fit my space? Is it going to be something that I’m going to want to look at in five years? Is my husband going to like it? There are all of these other things around the decision and again there, some of them are based on objections that you should think through and some of them are based on emotion.
Miriam Schulman:
To bring it back to the art class, one mistake I saw one of my clients do is she was talking about her art class for children, painting is fun. I said, “Yeah but a lot of things are fun. So you really have to talk about, well what makes this fun that they can’t get from just giving their kid something else.”
Danielle Weil:
It’s be specific.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. I can’t say that word.
Danielle Weil:
Specificity.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes, thank you. I still can’t say it. I’m not going to try. But what is the benefit that can only be from your thing? Because they can put a mirror over their sofa, they don’t have to put a painting over their sofa and they don’t have to put your painting over the sofa. So just to bring it back, the conversation to selling your art the most important thing is to have them emotionally connect with either the painting or with you or preferably both.
Danielle Weil:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And the way that they do that is you show them that you understand where they’re coming from, where they are. What they’re thinking or feeling, what they want and then you show them your story. You tell them your story. Give them a way to resonate with you and then once you do those two things then you’re ready to say, “Well here. Here is what I have.” And by then they feel that you’ve created this relationship.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. A relationship is so important.
Danielle Weil:
What do you do with a blank canvas? Where do you start?
Miriam Schulman:
So I am a very representational painter. Concrete, it’s not that I’m doing photo realism per se. It is my interpretation of what I’m seeing but I do have a structure and a format and that’s what I teach inside of both Pet Portrait Academy and Water Color Portrait Academy is that like we talked about before for your copy that legal cheating way of starting with a photograph and moving from the photograph to your finished painting. Inside Water Color Portrait Academy, for example, the model for the main lesson is Thalia and it’s so interesting how everyone’s using the same exact photograph and my techniques. How many different versions of Thalia that there are that all look like her but all look very different because the painter’s personality does come through it. It’s so interesting.
Danielle Weil:
I think that’s actually a perfect analogy to writing copy because people tend to think, oh I have to be creative to write. It’s more about the structure than anything else. Every piece of sales copy, every piece of writing. Every page, every email has a structure to it. We talked a little bit about it with the narrative and the four pieces but the point that I want to make is that once you know what the structure is, once you can kind of see okay, I’m going to do this, I’m going to tell about myself, I’m going to talk about the problem. I’m going to talk about my solution. Once you know the structure, it really is like a formula. Then you can kind of put your own twist on it because you are unique and as long as you are following the structure you will come out with something that’s totally you.
Miriam Schulman:
That makes me feel so much better about everything it really does because now I can actually see what you’re talking about with the copy structure and how by using that painting structure as a metaphor dozens of artists can take a picture of Thalia, my formula and the results look different. But yet it still represents my daughter. Just different interpretations.
Danielle Weil:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And using the narrative concept will take you from okay this person over here wants a thing, here’s the thing that I have to sell, here’s my class. And you will get them there in a way that works but is also totally you because you followed the structure. Because you’ve taken the skeleton of this formula that works and put your own layers, your own spin on it. So the narrative is not just, okay here are the four steps, it’s really about creating a relationship through words when you can’t or your not having a face to face conversation with someone. Because normally we would do that just as we’re talking to someone and copy and writing is all about creating those conversations when you don’t necessarily know how the other person is reacting.
Miriam Schulman:
A lot of times what I tell my clients is what you’re really doing with your online website, your emails, and all those things is simulating what would have happened if they were with you in person.
Danielle Weil:
Exactly.
Miriam Schulman:
All right I think that’s a really good place to wrap up. So Danielle can you tell people about your copy lab program?
Danielle Weil:
It is my group mentorship program for people who want help owning their words, feeling confident about what they’re writing. Getting help with their strategy as well.
Miriam Schulman:
I did I think a Beta version of your copy lab is that right?
Danielle Weil:
You did last year, yes.
Miriam Schulman:
I did. Okay and just in case I wasn’t 100% clear, I am one of Danielle’s private clients. So she does help me do things like take my shark story and turn it into sales copy.
Danielle Weil:
We have a lot of fun.
Miriam Schulman:
And then Danielle you also have a done in a day sales page system. So if somebody created a class where they needed a full sales page… Would this be for a single sales page or somebody had a catalog of different art classes? Who is this for?
Danielle Weil:
So this is for someone who is usually selling, and art class or a course and they want an enrollment page for that. What the program does is walks you through the four steps that we talked about in the narrative, those are basically once you have those you are halfway done with your enrollment page for your course. So the course walks you through step by step how to create that. Really breaks it down to fill in the blanks and here’s how to create an enrollment page in such a way that you could get it done in a day if you liked.
Miriam Schulman:
All right, that’s awesome. So we are going to link to your website in the show notes which you can find. Schulmanart.com/105 and don’t forget Danielle put together that very special freebie just for Inspiration Place listeners. Dwcopy.com/T as in Tom, I as in Ice cream, P as in Pat. Or T as in the, I as in inspiration, P as in Place. That’s actually how she came up with it. Dwcopy.com/TIP. I will link to that in the show notes as well, so don’t worry you will find everything you need right there. All righty Danielle, do you have any last words for my listeners before we call this podcast complete?
Danielle Weil:
Yes. The power of emotion. The power of really thinking through what your ideal clients, your students, what they want, what they’re thinking, what they’re feeling because people buy based on emotion and so the more that you can incorporate that into your writing and it doesn’t have to be flowery. To go back to that idea of flowery language. It should be the natural way that someone would talk what they’re thinking or feeling. So you incorporate that language in and it resonates and it makes people feel like yes, you’re in my head you understand me.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s great. All right, thank you so much for being with me here today.
Danielle Weil:
Thank you. This was a lot of fun.
Miriam Schulman:
So make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button in your podcast app and if your feeling extra generous please leave me a review. We’ve actually made it so much easier for you to do that. You go to schulmanart.com/review-podcast and if you pop your IG handle at the end of the review I can even give you a shout out on my Instagram stories. If your international just send me a DM @schulmanart. I would love to hear from you. I don’t always see international reviews. All right guys, thanks so much for being with me here today. I’ll see you the same time, the same place next week. Make it a great one. Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at Facebook.com/schulmanart, on Instagram @schulmanart, and of course on schulmanart.com.
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