THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Miriam Schulman:
Well, hi, passion makers, it’s Miriam Schulman, chief inspiration officer, and your host. You’re listening to episode 128. I’m so grateful that you’re here. Today, we’re talking all about creative careers. In this episode, you’ll discover how to be smart about your hustle, why the genius is in the edit and how to create a long lasting career on your own terms.
Today’s guest began his career as a fashion designer. He was chosen one of the top 10 designers in the US. He switched careers to film and video production. He directed award-winning commercials, documentaries, and web content around the world for clients such as Ralph Lauren, Victoria’s Secret and Tiffany.
His book, Creative Careers – Making A Living With Your Ideas is an Amazon bestseller. And it’s based on the class he teaches at Parsons School of Design. He’s been a featured speaker on creating a brand and creativity at Wharton, Princeton, NYU, North Carolina State, and Minnesota State. He graduated with honors from University of Wisconsin, that’s my mother’s alma mater, with degrees in philosophy and psychology. Please welcome to the Inspiration Place, Jeffrey Madoff. Well, hey Jeffrey, welcome to the show.
Jeffrey Madoff:
Well, thank you for having me on, Miriam.
Miriam Schulman:
I want to know why you think the wrestling team prepared you for a life in the film business? Also, what was your weight class?
Jeffrey Madoff:
Well, in high school it was 120. And in college it was 123. There’s all kinds of sports metaphors in business all the time. And most of them are stupid. But this one, it’s like chess, when you’re doing collegiate wrestling or Olympic wrestling. And what that means is you have to think in series, you have to think ahead. You have to be a couple moves ahead of your opponent, anticipating what obstacles are going to be set up. And learning how to either pivot quickly, which is really important, or exhausting yourself pushing against resistance that you’re not going to get past. So in fact, wrestling did help with a certain way of thinking about things. Because you don’t want to exhaust yourself pointlessly. And if you can move quickly and surprise the other person, you can keep the match going. It did have actually some real story value.
Miriam Schulman:
I love that. I think I mentioned to you earlier, I am a wrestling mom. My NYU son, well, he’s not wrestling because of COVID, he was wrestling in high school and then most of college, he wrestled as well. And he loved it because exactly what you said, he felt like it was physical, mental chess.
Jeffrey Madoff:
Yeah, that’s right.
Miriam Schulman:
He loved that intellectual aspect of it.
Jeffrey Madoff:
And I decided I wasn’t going to be a professional wrestler. What weight class was your son by the way?
Miriam Schulman:
Well, I know it’s different in college as in high school, it was something like 138. And basically my weight tended to track his. So when he was cutting weight, and I looked much better, yeah, when he was trying to keep his weight down, it definitely helped me stay more mindful of what I was eating as well.
Jeffrey Madoff:
And there is a discipline that goes along with all of that. And you also have to be healthy. Because you can lose weight and lose strength. That applies too, is that you want to maintain your health, so that no matter what you’re doing, whether you’re a painter or a filmmaker or whatever, it’s being able to perform and being optimal in your performance. Which means take care of your primary asset, which is yourself.
Miriam Schulman:
And your energy, taking care of your energy levels.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes. So it’s even more important than managing your time, is managing your energy. Sometimes people say, oh, if I only had more time, I could do whatever. And I say, “No, that’s a lie. Because you have fixed energy, and even if you had five more hours, you still wouldn’t be able to do it.”
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. Yeah. When the car’s out of gas, it doesn’t matter if you have more time to get to your destination, it’s not going to be rolling there. That’s right.
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So I think that leads us into the next question about being smart about your hustle. What does that mean to you?
Jeffrey Madoff:
Well, what it means is to be smart about what it is that you’re doing. So how do you apply your time? How do you apply your energy? And how do you approach what it is you’re doing in an intelligent way? So, that means that you need to know what’s the competitive landscape around what you’re doing. What are the things that you can do that can help bring a successful result?
So you’ve got to think about what you’re doing. You have to think about the context, which is really important in terms of what it is you’re doing. If you’re writing a book, you want to know that, well, how do I get the book in front of the eyes of the audience that I hope to reach. Same thing with painting, who is going to buy your paintings? You want to put those things in front of the right audience. And so being smart about your hustle is really about being smart about how you approach your business and being strategic in the way that you think about it.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. And I don’t know what your opinion is about this, but I’m always coaching my clients about the idea of either your price has to be high enough so that you don’t run out of gas also. Because I’ll speak to a client and I’ll say, “Okay, how much are you selling your art for?” And she’ll say, “$300.” I said, “Okay, how long does it take you to paint that?” And she said a week. I said, “Okay. So if you sold every single painting that you make, you will spend all your time to make $15,000. Is that what you want?”
To really think about, if you were as successful as you want to be, will you still be where you need to be? Are you pricing things high enough? The value of reaching a luxury market rather than trying to be the K-mart of artists. Is there a question in what I just said? It sounded more like a sermon.
Jeffrey Madoff:
Well, I’m actually in the congregation of that sermon.
Miriam Schulman:
Awesome. Okay. Take it away. Take it away.
Jeffrey Madoff:
And the reason is, is because if you decide to make your living with your painting or with whatever creative career that you’re pursuing, there’s a business aspect to it. And if you somehow think that being creative is somehow precious and won’t be tainted by business, the question that you bring up is, okay, if you’re selling your paintings for $300, how much is your rent? How much is your phone? How much are your streaming services? How much do you go through socially each month? What’s your living overhead?
Because if you’re hoping to make a living, you’ve got to exceed your expenses in what your revenues are. That’s whether you’re a lawyer or a dentist or an artist or whatever it is you’re doing. So those are smart questions to ask. And I think a lot of people don’t ask that. And I think creative people are in a particular bind about that because they’re often so thrilled when somebody buys their work. And they aren’t thinking about the fact, I’m not going to make a living this way. I can’t even pay my rent.
So unless it’s a hobby and you don’t care. And that just the acknowledgement that somebody is willing to pay anything for what you do is fine. You have to approach it like a business.
Miriam Schulman:
I know there’s a portion of my audience who just wants to paint for fun. And that’s fine. As long as you’re honest about what you’re doing. But they’ll say to me, “Oh, no-one’s going to pay that for my art.” If we take an example from the fashion industry, I was just looking at this yesterday, what do you price a black t-shirt at?
Jeffrey Madoff:
What’s really interesting is when you are in the fashion business, for instance, and you can buy a black t-shirt for 12 bucks, you can buy a black t-shirt for $450. And you could even spend more than that. So the question is, at a certain point, if you lay all those black t-shirts out and you’ve got this price spectrum from $12 to $500, at a certain point, not even in the middle yet, you’re going to be hard pressed to know what the difference is if the tags are taken out. They’re all cotton. But some have a higher quality higher thread count, but what really creates the notion of perceived value is the brand. So if you see that it’s Prada, or if it’s Gucci, you’re going to think that’s going to be on the more expensive end of things. If you’re looking at Champion or Hanes or something like that, you expect it to be on the lower end of things. Because those aren’t status brands. And so the brand has a lot to do with it. And that’s also true in the art world.
Miriam Schulman:
Absolutely. So, first of all, I love the numbers you threw out because that was exactly what my research showed me yesterday. I said, “Okay, I went on Neiman Marcus and I went on Bergdorf Goodman.” Two very high end sites. And I found a woman’s t-shirt on Bergdorf for $120, just plain black. And on Neiman Marcus, there was a men’s t-shirt for $455. Men’s. Is it Givenchy, is that how you say it?
Jeffrey Madoff:
Givenchy, yes.
Miriam Schulman:
Thank you for helping me out there. So why is that one, $455? Why are people willing to pay that? Because it’s not like Neiman Marcus has this fantasy that somebody is going to want to pay that. Obviously they know who their buyer is and what they pay for things? That is the market for that t-shirt.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. It’s funny, I was at a store in New York, Zabar’s, that you probably know.
Miriam Schulman:
I love Zabar’s.
Jeffrey Madoff:
It’s a great place, and had to buy a new tea kettle. They had a whole shelf full of them. And I was with a good friend of mine. And we’re looking, I said, “Oh, this one looks really cool. And wow, this one is really neat looking and this and this.” And the price difference was from $25, again, up to about 450. And he said, “Jeff, remember, it’s about boiling water. They’ll all do that.”
Miriam Schulman:
Well, the black t-shirt is essentially an undershirt. That’s the other thing, it’s like …
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. That’s right. But it’s a perception of value. Take it to something that everybody understands. There’s an emotional tie to a brand. So if you’re in love with Prada or Ralph Lauren, or Givenchy, you’re going to be willing to pay more for that.
And that goes into every area. So, nobody’s really passionate about buying a Dell computer, but they are passionate about buying the newest Apple computer. Brands add a perception of value. And it’s the same thing in the art world. If you’re a known artist, if your market price has been established, people anticipate that they’re going to pay more for you. What something is worth, it’s not like there’s an intrinsic value because the threads that they’re using, that $450 t-shirt, are a hundred times more expensive than the other. But the advertising and the marketing and all those things that built that brand also figure into the price.
Miriam Schulman:
And the venue matters.
Jeffrey Madoff:
Absolutely.
Miriam Schulman:
Because you could take that same $455 designer t-shirt, but if I saw it at a flea market, I’m not paying more than $15 for it. There’s that trust factor. There is also the concept of sometimes what you’re buying for some people it’s not the thing, it’s the souvenir of the experience.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. It is the context. If you saw a painting at a craft fair, you’re not going to think that you’re going to pay nearly as much as if you had seen a painting in a gallery.
Miriam Schulman:
Correct.
Jeffrey Madoff:
So context has a lot to do with it. So if you’re shopping at a good store, and by the way, these things break down, we’re doing more and more buying online, so establishing brand value online for new companies has to do with everything in terms of how they position themselves. Because it’s not like you’re going into a place that you’re immersed in the displays and they offer you a cup of coffee and it’s a whole different kind of experience, more towards a luxury experience when you go into those stores.
And so online where, especially during COVID, online shopping has gone up so tremendously, you need to create or show your things in an environment that has that perceived value.
And so I think it’s really interesting because that’s what makes something worth something. I do an exercise in my class. And I put up a bottled water, Poland Spring. And I put it up on the screen. And I said to the students, “So how much is this worth?” Say, “A dollar, $1.50.” Said, “Okay, so it’s worth a dollar to a $1.50, that bottle of Poland Spring.”
“Well, we’re now in the desert, and I’ve got the only bottle of water around. That bottle of water is the only thing that separates you from dying. Would you pay 500 for it? Would you pay 5,000 for it? Would you pay 10,000 for it? How much is it worth then?” And the circumstance and the context define that. What something is worth, you have to define by the context it’s in and by the circumstances.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s the transformation about what it says about them. That I’m a person who buys $455 t-shirts. That says something about me. If I was the type of person who did that, but I tend not to.
Also in the art market, people feel that way too. I’ve seen it happen with collectors. They want to see themselves as the kind of person who invests in original art. I’ve seen a woman buy an original painting, a $400 original painting, for her niece because she wanted to see herself as the aunt who buys original art for her niece. That’s how she wants to perceive herself. So it’s like her own self-concept was defined by her purchase.
Jeffrey Madoff:
In my class, I had a guest, a wonderful painter, wonderful person, Zaria Foreman. Zaria’s work is incredible. And about 10 years ago was the first time she sold a painting, 10 or 12 years ago. I said, “Do you remember what it was like when you sold your first painting?” And she said, “Well, first of all, figuring …” And I said, “How did you determine the price? How did you determine what you would charge for it?”
And she said, “I wanted to paint larger scale and so my canvases were like four by six feet. There was a person who was interested in my work. Honestly, I had no idea what to charge. And then I went around to some stores and some galleries and looked at things around that size by unknown artists. So I decided that I would ask for $5,000.”
And I said, “And so how did you feel telling that person the price?” She said, “I was scared to death. Because she might’ve thought I was crazy. What, are you nuts? Nobody knows who you are. I’ll give you $500 for it, not $5,000.”
“But I had looked at enough stuff out there to know the landscape of, well, this is kind of in better stores what unknown artists sell for doing things around that size. An over the couch painting.” I said, “So what did you do?” She said, “Well, I told her the price.” And I said, “What did that person, how did they react?” And she said, “They bought it.” And I said, “That’s great.”
“So now you established a baseline for your work. Because that’s also what collectors do. They also determine market.” I said, “Just out of curiosity, Zaria, what would be the cost of that painting now, 12 years later?” And she smiled and said, “$150,000.”
Miriam Schulman:
Oh wow.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s what her arts selling for now.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s awesome.
Jeffrey Madoff:
But everybody is, or not everybody, but almost everybody is scared to death to name the price because they want to make the sale. They haven’t established a solid value yet for their work. I would say you can always come down in your price, but nobody’s going to offer you more than you’re asking.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, you can’t go further than your dream basically. If you limit yourself that way. It’s such a great story. I can’t tell you how many artists I know who say to themselves, I can’t ask that because I’m just starting out. Which is a lie. We get to decide what our value is.
Jeffrey Madoff:
When I was in the fashion business, I had these four shirts off to the side and people say, “Now, what are those?” And I said, “Well, those are very special.” “What makes them special?” And I said, “Well, they’re $5,000 a piece.” Said, “$5,000.” “Why do they cost that much?” I said, “Well, I figured I wouldn’t have to sell that many. If I could sell them at that price.” And so that would get a laugh. And of course I never sold them. Nobody ever bought them.
But the funny thing was, there was a certain psychology reached because when they saw that my actual price was way, way, way, way lower than that, it didn’t seem so expensive anymore.
There’s two sales that go on. And I think this is interesting for anybody who’s placing a price on original work. In a sense, you said it, which is first you have to sell yourself. And you have to be confident in what the value is that you’re putting something out there for. Because if there’s a big difference if you say, I don’t know, you know, I mean, I’m thinking, you know, around $500. As opposed to, it’s $500. And you say it with confidence because you believe it. People will sense when you don’t have the confidence in your own pricing.
And especially when it’s something like art. And you know that the person really wants to sell it. The most powerful thing you can do is say, no. That means you establish a value. And then of course you can’t be delusional like I was with the shirts that were so expensive. Although it was actually a joke.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, even with Zaria, she didn’t ask a 100,000 for her first painting, like that’s delusional.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. That’s right, that’s right. But it is about selling yourself first, so you can sell to that potential collector in a way that there’s a confidence behind that sale.
Miriam Schulman:
Hey, by the way, I wanted to make sure that you knew that as we’re recording this, in early 2021, there are two spots open inside the Artist Incubator Mastermind. If you’re lacking a solid strategy or a winning mindset. And if you’re disappointed with your current art sales. I can help you learn how to make more money from your art. If you’ve been listening to this podcast and you’ve found my tips helpful, maybe it’s time to take the next logical step and work with me on a deeper level.
The incubator program is for emerging and professional artists who are serious about working on the business side to make more money. There’s no fee or commitment to apply. And those who qualify get a free strategy call with me. Just go to schulmanart.com/biz. Now back to the show.
All right, we’re going to jump topics. One of them was, why is the genius in the edit? Now, somebody who has made a career in film and fashion, I’m sure that that’s something that’s close to your heart.
Jeffrey Madoff:
It is. And it comes through in fashion. It comes through in film, it comes through in the writing, from the play that I’m doing. Even the book that I wrote. And it comes through in the paintings that you do.
Editing, I believe is one of the most powerful parts of the creative process. And the reason is, is that’s where everything takes shape. And that’s where you really determine, for instance, when I was writing the play, I interviewed, it’s based on an actual person, Lloyd Price, who was one of the cornerstone artists of rock and roll. First, I had to decide since I had such a wealth of information, and I interviewed him for 28 hours. So I have hundreds of pages of transcripts from the interviews and so on. I had to determine, okay, what’s the story I’m going to tell. And so that’s an edit right there.
And then when I focus on what’s the story I’m going to tell, it’s how I’m going to tell it. Gradually, everything is shaping what that story is going to be. Michelangelo was asked, how do you take a block of marble and create David? And he said, “I cut away everything that doesn’t look like David.” That’s kind of what you do in any art form. You take away what’s not necessary.
I can give you a real life example of this. And this is from the play. We were doing our first table read with the actors. There’s a scene that takes place in Australia. And it’s very funny. And as the actors are reading it, they’re cracking up. And they’re enjoying the scene and they’re laughing. And I’m sitting there thinking something’s not right.
And so we take a break and I said to the director, Sheldon Apps, “What do you think of the Australia scene?” And he said, “Well, we know it’s funny, everybody was laughing. It’s interesting, but is it essential?” I said, “What do you mean, is it essential?” He said, “Does it either reveal more about the character or move the plot forward?” And I said, “No.” And he said, “Then it’s not essential.”
Miriam Schulman:
Wow.
Jeffrey Madoff:
It really hit. And I took those five pages out. He was absolutely correct. So everything to me is kind of about the velocity of the work.
And so when you’re painting, what do you include in the frame? What’s your composition? What don’t you? How many colors do you use? What do you put in the painting? Because we all hear that phrase, it’s also as important, what you don’t put in. What do you leave out?
I think that that guide, whether you’re a painter, whether you’re a musician, whether you’re writing a book or a play, that notion of is it essential? And asking yourself that all the time. Because it all happens in the edit.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, that’s a great question. The other question I like to ask, to apply it to the edit slightly differently, I get asked often by the artists who I coach, what do they do with older work that hasn’t sold? Do I put it on sale? The answer is always no by the way. My answer to them is always, do you still believe in this art? Do you still believe in it?
And that is something that really good artists ask themselves. Because when we look at Monet, when we look at van Gogh in the museums, we’re not seeing everything they’ve ever painted. We’re seeing the art after they’ve … van Gogh would paint over a canvas three times, we know this, we know this. Monet destroyed a lot of his artwork at the end of his life. So we’re looking at what they still believed in, and they didn’t edit out of their portfolio or their, what do you call the …
Jeffrey Madoff:
Their oeuvre of work, yes.
Miriam Schulman:
Thank you for helping me with the hard words today. So yeah, that’s another way that the edit definitely shows up. What do you believe in? It’s not hang on and hoard everything in your life.
Jeffrey Madoff:
When I was designing clothes, and you put together a collection, I’ll give you a better example, Ralph Lauren, who I’ve worked with for so many years. When he puts together a collection, there may be a really great item, but it doesn’t fit in with the theme of the collection. Is it essential in terms of telling this story that he wanted to tell? The answer, no. So it doesn’t go in.
When you’re an established artist, and you’re doing a show, and you’re represented by a particular gallery, they’re going to determine what goes on the walls in terms of your show and what things aren’t showing yet.
Miriam Schulman:
And it’s not always a question of good work, bad work, I believe in this work, I don’t believe in this work. It’s also, like you said, how does this fit into the collection?
When I would go to an art festival, if you’re showing work from … and your work is evolving or you’re experimenting, you don’t want to mix everything you’ve ever painted. Because it’s very confusing to collectors to come in and say, okay, there’s a watercolor, there’s a collage, there’s something else. It’s very confusing for them. So it needs to be a tightly curated show. The same way as if you were walking into a museum, they generally would not put everything that Picasso ever did in one show. It would be Picasso’s nudes or Picasso’s sculptures, or Matisse’s cut outs. They don’t mix things together. It has a theme. And there’s a story that pulls everything together.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. And by the way, the same thing happens if you’re a chef and you’re at a restaurant and you’re putting the menu together, it’s in all things. And that’s what I find so interesting. Is that applies there. It applies if you’re recording an album of music. I work with many musicians and have friends that are musicians, and it’s all the same thought process. I’m trying to tell a particular story here. And I love this but it doesn’t fit. Asking that question, knowing how to answer it, is a sign of gaining maturity in your art.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh yeah. If you go to a restaurant, like you said, and you can have everything from the Greek salad to the Chinese food, well, that’s a diner. And that’s a very different price model. So what we were talking about at the beginning. A very different brand than if you go into Le Bernardin, I don’t know, what’s a really good restaurant in New York city? If you go into-
Jeffrey Madoff:
Well, Le Bernardin is known for their seafood.
Miriam Schulman:
Very niche, very curated, you know what to expect. You’re not going to go there for hamburgers.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. Although I’m always amazed when I go to those diners, that have the seven page menus, are laminated. I love it. They have these technicolor pictures of the food, so you don’t even have to really be able to speak to order. You can just point to it. And I’m thinking in that little kitchen, you turn out everything from lobster to chow mein to everything in between. I just find it amazing.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, I think there’s an SNL skit, like don’t order lobster in a diner or something like that. And then the lobster come … the guy comes out in a lobster costume. And then the other joke it reminds me of, Roz Chast, the cartoonist, she says, grilled cheese is always safe. She doesn’t venture off of that because if you’re not sure. So I usually have that philosophy when I eat at a diner, it should be something simple.
Jeffrey Madoff:
Eggs, something you recognize easily.
Miriam Schulman:
Very simple. The adventure eating is for the higher end restaurants. All right. So I just want to move on down. You’ve interviewed a lot of guests both in your class and in your book, you told me to throw in a hard ball question. This is it. What insight did you learn from any of your guests that you found the most surprising?
Jeffrey Madoff:
I don’t think that I have been surprised as much as happy that they’re being candid about how things go. A lot of people talk about what they do, especially when they’re successful, as if they had no insecurities and they had nothing to overcome. And it was this hockey stick growth, the graph of growth.
So I’m always really gratified when people speak the truth. Because we all know it’s not easy. When you’re trying to make a living with your ideas, it’s difficult. Especially nowadays, on social media people try to present perfect lives. Perfect lives don’t exist. But what’s interesting, and clearly you do it too, is we’re having a conversation, happens to be a podcast, but we’re having a conversation about things. And what pops into your mind or what references pop into mind and we’re bouncing back and forth and all of that.
I think that when you have real conversation, and you don’t try to somehow gloss over the difficulties that things can be. There are threads that go through all the guests. And I would say the most prevalent common thread is perseverance. You have to keep at it. And it’s easy to start a business, harder to build it, and the most difficult to sustain it.
I’m fortunate in that in vetting the people that I invite to the class or I do interviews with, I want to make sure that I’m not going to get some canned responses. I really want to get something that’s going to be useful. And frankly, that I can learn from too.
What I’ve also learned, aside from the perseverance, is that all businesses are the same, the protocols that you go through in the business. And that’s why I throw in the thing about the menu. People might not think about it, but you’re editing a menu. I’ve had great chef, Hillary Sterling, one of my favorite restaurants in New York, Vic’s New York, and in putting together her menu, I mean, that’s the story she is telling. It all relates to storytelling. And that’s the story she’s telling with the menu. So she leaves out much more than she puts in, but it all works together.
And I think as you get better at your art, as you get better at what you do, you learn how to distill those things much quicker. Yeah, I think you get a lot more in a sense efficient with your art because you aren’t stopped and stumped by the things that did before.
Miriam Schulman:
One of my clients asked me, oh, you make everything look so good, but tell us about a struggle you’ve had and how you overcame it. It was a hard question for me to answer. Not because I haven’t had struggles, but I don’t see them that way. I see them as challenges. So it’s like a different point of view when something is hard. It’s just the way I’ve framed it in my mind. Do you feel that way too, Jeffrey, about your work?
Jeffrey Madoff:
I do. It’s funny, the obstacles oftentimes are more to do with client behavior and what you have to do to get certain approvals and things done when you’re dealing with certain people. And that could also be a challenge. But to me, I guess, I look at most things as challenges not obstacles, because challenges are about how do you figure out how to overcome them.
I think that it’s an obstacle if it stops you. You hit a brick wall, and I’m more apt to try to figure out, so how can I go over, under, around, or through this? Because I believe in the end that I am seeking. So I got to figure out a way around it. So to me, it is kind of more of a challenge, well, how are you going to get past this part?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. To bring it all home, unless your back is on the mat with your shoulders pinned down, do you still have a chance to make a move and change the direction?
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. And I do think that it’s important to be open to hearing, all of my work is collaborative, other than when I’m sitting there alone writing, but the rewriting and the editing is a result of collaboration.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, absolutely.
Jeffrey Madoff:
And my film crews, it’s collaboration. And so I think it’s also with clients, you need to listen. Because everybody wants to feel heard. You need to listen and to be open. A lot of times what I thought was a really good idea, became a much better idea as a result of the input of others.
Miriam Schulman:
Right, I fully agree with that. That’s why I love commissioned work. But I don’t remember if I shared with you, I’m writing a book. And I was speaking with an agent recently. I haven’t been signed by her yet, but she was giving me feedback on what she thought. And it’s really helping me shape the direction of the book. And it wasn’t so much that I’m trying to please this one person who may or may not be my agent. But like you said, just the collaboration of hearing feedback on something that I’ve been working on by myself was so valuable to understand how somebody else sees your art or your work, whatever that art or work happens to be.
Jeffrey Madoff:
And I think that’s a critical thing by the way, is how do you take getting, whether you call them notes or criticism or whatever. For me, and I’m curious if it’s the same for you, for me, if somebody is giving me a note that resonates with me and really kind of echoes a hesitancy I had, but didn’t really confront, I hear it and I feel it and I can act on it. And if it’s something that just is coming out of a place that I just don’t relate to at all, it’s like, that’s their opinion. I don’t even get into it.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, it’s like the Brene Brown, who gets a seat at your table, at your board of directors, does their opinion even matter to you? So like I said, it’s not about pleasing this particular person. It was because what she said made sense.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:
And a part of me already knew it. But didn’t acknowledge it. Like you said with your play, those five pages, you knew what the truth was already and you needed the confirmation from the director.
Jeffrey Madoff:
That’s right. Really good creative collaborations are the result of listening and considering these other ideas. And I have such a rich collaboration with the people I’m working with on the play. Because the agreement that we all have is that, first of all, I have a no asshole rule. You can’t be mean, you can’t be difficult to deal with. You can have strong opinions. I have strong opinions. But everything has to be done out of not only respect, but sharing the same goal of putting the best possible work out there.
There are some people just need to put their thumb prints on everything, just because they’re so insecure that they have to put their thumb prints on everything. And there are others who are generous of spirit and whose whole satisfaction comes from the fulfillment of jointly creating a great piece of work. And those are the people that I like working with. Because they take pride in their work, but they are open to other ideas that could maybe even make it better. And I think that’s really important.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. So I think this is a beautiful place to wrap up. So I just want to let everyone know, Creative Careers: Making A Living With Your Ideas by Jeffrey Madoff is available, Amazon and stores. We’ll make sure to post a link to that in the show notes, which you’ll be able to find at schulmanart.com/128.
Don’t forget if you liked this episode, then please check out the Artists Incubator. It’s my private coaching program for emerging and professional artists who want to make more sales and take their current art business to the next level. It’s by application only. To apply, go to schulmanart.com/biz. B as in boy, I as in ice cream, Z or zed, wherever you are in the world, as in zebra. If you qualify, then we’ll talk.
All right, Jeffrey, do you have any last words for my listeners before we call this podcast complete?
Jeffrey Madoff:
One of the questions that I ask all of my guests is define success. And what does success mean to you? And what does it look like to you? A lot of people don’t ask themselves that question. And it doesn’t mean that the answer is carved in stone. But what is fulfilling to you? And know why you’re doing what you’re doing. Because you are going to hit some big challenges. There are going to be times that are really difficult. And in order to keep going, it’s what we were talking about earlier, there needs to be perseverance. Because it’s not easy. You’re going to hit hard times. So I think it’s really important to remember why you are doing what you’re doing in the first place. And I think it’s important to revisit that, so it always stays fresh and keeps you motivated even through those hard times.
Miriam Schulman:
Beautiful. Okay. Thank you so much for being with me here today. All right, everyone, I’ll see you the same time, same place next week. Stay inspired.
Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place Podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/schulmanart, on Instagram at schulmanart, and of course on schulmanart.com.
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