THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Terri Trespicio:
The same with anything we do. You don’t have to be a fine artist to have an exhibit and explore talent. I love that definition that it’s a recurring behavior, because what it means is we can change it and improve it.
Speaker 2:
It’s the Inspiration Place Podcast with artist Miriam Schulman. Welcome to the Inspiration Place Podcast. An art world insider podcast for artists by an artist, where each week we go behind the scenes to uncover the perspiration and inspiration behind the art. Now, your host, Miriam Schulman.
Terri Trespicio:
You’re coming into the city now. You’re selling your place out there? Or What’s happening?
Miriam Schulman:
Yes. I 100% am moving to the city.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh my God. What is prompting this?
Miriam Schulman:
We put an offer on an apartment. We have an accepted offer.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh my God. Oh my God. What a fantastic neighborhood. We’re neighbors.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s right. We’re … What? 12 blocks away or something.
Terri Trespicio:
Funny. Everyone else moved out during the pandemic and you’re moving back in.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s right.
Terri Trespicio:
I love it.
Miriam Schulman:
We can …
Terri Trespicio:
You’re moving together?
Miriam Schulman:
My husband and I. We’re moving together.
Terri Trespicio:
Because part of me was like, “Uh oh.”
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, no.
Terri Trespicio:
I’m moving to the city. Bye. I’m moving on with my life.
Miriam Schulman:
No, I should be clear. No. Because that would … That’s a scenario for people. No. Our kids … My son emigrated to Israel. He’s never coming back.
Terri Trespicio:
Really?
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah.
Terri Trespicio:
When you say, “Never coming back,” why are you saying it like that?
Miriam Schulman:
He made citizenship.
Terri Trespicio:
Wow. That’s it. He’s doing that now.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s right. He actually asked me … This is a 21 year old, by the way. You never know.
Terri Trespicio:
No, of course not. What do they know?
Miriam Schulman:
Especially, with what your book’s about. There’s lots different things that could be … This sounds weird.
Terri Trespicio:
That’s a big deal. That’s a really big decision.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s something he’s wanted to do for a long time.
Terri Trespicio:
I take it you’re on the fence about that?
Miriam Schulman:
No, no. I am in full radical acceptance of anything my children want to do.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay. Good.
Miriam Schulman:
I’m just missing him. Because of COVID, I can’t go there. I was supposed to actually go there next week and the borders are closed because of Omicron. I can’t even … I haven’t seen him in several months.
Terri Trespicio:
That’s not easy.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. It kind of sucks. Anyway, he moved out. My other child doesn’t want to move out. Well she does, but she needs some encouragement. We’re like, “Fine. We’re getting rid of the house. Now, you have no choice.”
Terri Trespicio:
Oh, seriously? She’s not coming with you? She has to find another place to be.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, that’s one way to do it.
Miriam Schulman:
She can sleep on the couch. It’s pretty much her option.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh my God. Well, how old is she?
Miriam Schulman:
She’s 24.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay.
Miriam Schulman:
We’re not talking about 18 year olds.
Terri Trespicio:
No. Right. She’s ready.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Terri Trespicio:
24. She’s ready to do something and she needs that little push. How exciting. Just to change your change up your life a little bit.
Miriam Schulman:
100%. We actually … We bought a farmhouse in the country.
Terri Trespicio:
What?
Miriam Schulman:
During the pandemic. It’s always been my husband’s dream to get a farmhouse, because he grew up in the country. I’m the city mouse and he’s the country mouse. That’s like-
Terri Trespicio:
Instead of being where you are, you bought a country place and you’re moving to the city?
Miriam Schulman:
… Well, we’re getting rid of this suburb situation.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, that’s right. I’m saying, you’re going the two extremes. Now, you have both options.
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly. Once we had the farm house, I didn’t want this house anymore.
Terri Trespicio:
Right. That’s exciting.
Miriam Schulman:
I’m very excited. Let’s talk about you. I’m so excited about your book.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh my God. Thank you. It’s all very exciting. It really is.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s so good. I have not finished it. I normally finish the books.
Terri Trespicio:
I wouldn’t expect you to read the whole thing before I interview.
Miriam Schulman:
I normally do, actually. I’m kind of that weird bird that way. But this is like, “Pee in the pants,” funny.
Terri Trespicio:
Really? Because when I read it, I was like, “This isn’t that funny.”
Miriam Schulman:
No, no. 24-year-old. I was like, “Thalia, you’ve got to read this.” I was passing her the book. That whole passage about losing your virginity. Oh my God. If Judy Bloom decided to write a self-help book, this would be it.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh my God. What a wonderful quote. Can I quote you on that one?
Miriam Schulman:
Absolutely. Of course.
Terri Trespicio:
I love Judy Bloom. That’s where I first got really excited about reading, was reading Judy Bloom and knowing you could talk about that stuff. So I talked about the first time I had sex. Not in great detail, but enough.
Miriam Schulman:
No. The way you did it was beautiful. It was just like that Seinfeld-ish, neurotic New Yorker … Sharing, but not in a way that makes you go, “Ew.”
Terri Trespicio:
It wasn’t gross.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. It was hilarious.
Terri Trespicio:
It wasn’t like you’d be embarrassed for your daughter to see it.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, right. I passed her the book.
Terri Trespicio:
You handed it to her.
Miriam Schulman:
She’s not even into self-help books, but she might be into this one. I was like, “Look at this.”
Terri Trespicio:
That’s the goal. It’s self-help with a penis in it. There is a penis in it.
Miriam Schulman:
Not too many penises. It’s not like the bro market.
Terri Trespicio:
It’s not a lot.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. That’s so awesome. Well, hello. This is Miriam Schulman, your creator of Inspiration. You’re listening to episode 177 of the Inspiration Place Podcast.
Miriam Schulman:
I am so grateful that you’re here. Every person on the planet wants their life to mean something. The problem is that you’ve been told there’s only one way to find that meeting.
Miriam Schulman:
In this episode, you’ll discover why talent is overrated. I’ve been saying that for years, by the way. And I plucked all these bullets directly off of Amazon on your …
Terri Trespicio:
I put them there for you.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. Thank you. How to confront the challenges that stop you in your tracks, like boredom, loss, and fear. How and why to unhook yourself from other people’s agendas.
Terri Trespicio:
Thank you.
Miriam Schulman:
Which is why I embrace my son moving to Israel. His dream, not my dreams. His dreams. By the way, before we dive in today’s show, I wanted to make sure you knew about my free training. This is my commercial.
Terri Trespicio:
Go for it.
Miriam Schulman:
How to sell more art without being Insta famous. If you were disappointed with your art sales last year, let’s get this year off to a great start. In this masterclass, you’ll discover the five most common mistakes artists make that sabotage their success.
You’ll also learn the five foundations you need in place to build your profitable art business. Plus, you’ll hear from artists who have done it. They are so inspiring. To choose your show time, go to schulmanart.com/sellmoreart.
Terri Trespicio:
Sell it girl. Sell it.
Miriam Schulman:
You haven’t been introduced yet, by the way.
Terri Trespicio:
Sorry.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. Now, back to the show. We’re on with the show. Today’s guest is an award-winning writer, speaker, brand advisor and author of “Unfollow Your Passion: How to Create a Life That Matters to You”.
Miriam Schulman:
Her TEDx talk, “Stop Searching For Your Passion,” has surpassed seven, holy cow, million views. HubSpot named her one of the top 18 female speakers who are killing it. A former magazine editor and radio host at Martha Stewart.
Miriam Schulman:
She’s appeared on the Today Show, Dr. Oz, The Early Show. The Martha Stewart Show, Anderson Cooper … Oprah Magazine, Marie Claire Prevention, Business Insider, Forbes Inc … And the Inspiration Place.
Miriam Schulman:
Please welcome to the Inspiration Place, Terri Trespicio. Hey, Terri. Welcome to the show.
Terri Trespicio:
Thank you. I’m finally here.
Miriam Schulman:
I’m so happy to have you here.
Terri Trespicio:
I’ve made it. I’ve made it.
Miriam Schulman:
I know. Even though you’ve been here the whole time.
Terri Trespicio:
Yep.
Miriam Schulman:
Terri … I just want to tell my listeners that I’ve been inside Terri’s apartment.
Terri Trespicio:
She’s been here.
Miriam Schulman:
I know. Is it the same place? That’s the same place?
Terri Trespicio:
Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh? With the little screen …
Terri Trespicio:
I have a wall divider up, so you can’t see my mess back there.
Miriam Schulman:
When we got together, it was like … That’s the one of the last times people were actually gathering in-person before the world fell apart. Is that right?
Terri Trespicio:
That was our last gathering. I am so glad we did that. We had a pop-up workshop. A writing salon in my house, in my apartment here all day. That was it. And then, everything went into lockdown like a few weeks later.
Miriam Schulman:
Because it was in February. Or?
Terri Trespicio:
Yeah. And then, that was it. I’m so glad we got to do that.
Miriam Schulman:
We washed our hands a lot. We thought that was protecting us.
Terri Trespicio:
We really weren’t tuned into it yet. I wasn’t.
Miriam Schulman:
No. We were not.
Terri Trespicio:
I wasn’t really … I was not aware. I was not afraid. I was too ignorant.
Miriam Schulman:
Right after that, I went to San Diego and did karaoke with people and came home with a very bad something-something.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh gosh.
Miriam Schulman:
Probably, COVID.
Terri Trespicio:
Hmm.
Miriam Schulman:
I’m okay. Obviously, I’m fine.
Terri Trespicio:
Thank God.
Miriam Schulman:
Anyway, but the karaoke … That was not exactly a safe thing to do, right?
Terri Trespicio:
Probably not.
Miriam Schulman:
Anyway, Terri. You were a very talented workshop leader.
Terri Trespicio:
Thank you.
Miriam Schulman:
It was all about writing. And if you are into creative writing, actually one of the things that was super fun about your book is there’s writing prompts throughout. Do you want to talk about why you did that?
Terri Trespicio:
Yes. Well, of course, not just because I’m a writer. But because … Just as the spa industry co-opted massage, it’s unfortunate that writers have co-opted writing. Or publishing has co-opted writing.
Because the fact is, everyone can benefit from a great massage and everyone can benefit from some time on the page. I don’t think it’s just for certain people to do. I think that using it as a tool is key for gaining some clarity and insight into our own lives.
I wanted to make sure that was part of it. Because it’s part of what I do, is lead these workshops. And so, I wanted to take an element of that and put it in the book.
Miriam Schulman:
It was an amazing workshop that actually gave me the courage to move forward with my own publishing journey. I don’t know if you realized that. Because it was like …
Terri Trespicio:
Really? It helped? That’s great.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. None of what we wrote is in the book.
Terri Trespicio:
It doesn’t matter.
Miriam Schulman:
But it was just … You and Laura Belgray saying, “We’re interested in your stories.”
Terri Trespicio:
That’s what it takes.
Miriam Schulman:
My listeners probably know by now, but you may not know. I actually have a publishing contract with Harper Collins. So it’s super perfect.
Terri Trespicio:
I knew you had a book coming out. I don’t know when.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, they told me they ran out of paper. It’s not coming out until 2023.
Terri Trespicio:
What?
Miriam Schulman:
That’s what I was told. It sounds stupid and ridiculous.
Terri Trespicio:
They ran out of paper?
Miriam Schulman:
There’s a paper shortage.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay. That’s very odd. I didn’t know that.
Miriam Schulman:
I thought so too. It’s like, “What’s the real truth? Is there somebody else you’re bumping?” My imposter syndrome is coming true.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh my God. Look, I get it. Shipment stuff is a pain maybe. I hope we have enough ink. What if we have all the paper and they run out of ink that year? Congratulations though. That’s a huge deal.
Miriam Schulman:
Thank you. But we’re here to talk about you, not me. It hasn’t been moved that much. It was supposed to be October 2022. Now, they just moved it four months. It’s February of ’23.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay.
Miriam Schulman:
I will be … Like I said to you earlier, I’m only about halfway through. It is piss in your pants funny. I loved it. But I will be relying on the questions you provided.
Terri Trespicio:
Yes. Of course.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. I’ve always had this thought myself, but I’m super interested in your answer. Why do you think talent is overrated?
Terri Trespicio:
Well, talent is overrated when we think of it as a finite thing that you’re either born with or not. If we look at talent like cheekbones or green eyes or birthmarks, then you’re born with something or you’re not.
And that of course is part of what psychologists call the fixed mindset. Whereas, a growth mindset is one in which we believe we can cultivate and grow what we have. Become better and change and evolve. All those things.
I think of talent as, “Oh, nice if you have it.” Overrated, if you think … Here’s why. If you think you are talented, you might not make an effort. Because you’ll rely on the talent. You might not make an effort to really sharpen your skill.
If you believe you’re not talented, you may never make an effort and develop the skill. Looking at it in a fixed way doesn’t help. But who has changed my mind about talent is Marcus Buckingham, who was part of … He wrote First, Break All The Rules. He’s this brilliant business thinker and business psychology thinker.
He says that, in fact, we can change. Talent doesn’t have to be a genetic thing. Talent … The way he has seen it by interviewing top managers and leaders is something that we do over and over again, which is what I thought skill was.
He looks at it as the way you do it. Miriam, the way you create art. The way you paint and all those things. The way you do it, someone else does a different kind of painting. And yet, the way you do it over and over is what makes a Miriam work of art different from someone else’s.
The same with anything we do. You don’t have to be a fine artist to have an exhibit and explore talent. I love that definition that it’s a recurring behavior, because what it means is we can change it and improve it.
In that regard, I do think of it. But when I think … Like Seth Godin says. “To call a professional talented is insulting,” he writes in The Practice. What they are is skilled. I like it, because it feels more worker. It feels like you can make it.
Miriam Schulman:
You have control over it.
Terri Trespicio:
You have some control. You’re not like, “Oh, well. I’m not talented enough.” It’s just blah. It doesn’t help.
Miriam Schulman:
Being the good mom who read all the self-help books, I was very careful with my kids. If they did well on a test to say, “Oh. You must have worked really hard.” Instead of saying, “Oh. You’re so smart.”
Terri Trespicio:
You’re smart. They’re smart.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. Because if that’s the reason they did well … Then, if they don’t do well, are they stupid?
Terri Trespicio:
They won’t prove you wrong. Or they won’t tell you if they need help. Because if they tell you … You won’t think they’re smart anymore. That tying up with identity. I think it is a really big problem.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. And then, it’s really rewarding that it’s the hard work that got them there. Not relying on some magical talent or smartness or something.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, for kids and also adults too. Because you’re like, “Am I really this? Am I really an artist? Am I really writer?”
This identity part is what slows us down. Are you doing it? Then, you do that thing.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. And then, also that idea that you’re supposed to be good at something right away, which you talk about in the book. With the whole thing with your bucket list. Do you want to … Where’s the good question to get us into that?
Terri Trespicio:
Well, actually the whole thing …
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. We’ll just talk about it.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, the lore of the secret genius. You just said.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Terri Trespicio:
When we try something, we hope that we’re just amazing at it right away. That is stuff of great movies and shows. You’re like, “I’m going to discover I’m a genius.” What that is … It’s deciding that, if I don’t do it amazingly right away, it’s not for me.
There has been research around people with fixed mindsets about passion. People who have a rigid idea of passion, “I’m born with it. I’m meant to do this. I’m not meant to do this.” In fact, the people who have a fixed mindset around passion … Some research has shown, that I cite in the book, that they will be quicker to give up when things get hard.
“It must not be my passion after all. It must not be for me.” Whereas someone who isn’t attached to one or the other may work harder at exploring it. That’s pretty important. Because if you’re quick to dismiss something, “I thought I liked it, but I guess it’s not for me.” Then, how many things are you going to give up on?
But the bucket list thing you’re bringing up is about … Look, I don’t have a bucket list. I have a list of things I’m going to do and not do. It’s not about being on a bucket list for me. For some people, having a bucket list is helpful.
But the question is, “Why?” Why are those things on the bucket list? You want to go to Machu Pichu? Amazing. It’s on your bucket list. Someday, you’ll go. Maybe. If learning Japanese is on your bucket list … Well, that takes years of study. That’s not something you just do.
A bucket list usually is something you’re going to go do like kiss the Blarney Stone. Which, why would anyone bother? That is so gross. But still, the idea of doing something once and assuming it brings some larger meaning. It’s something that I think, “Hmm. Really?”
The things that we do and get better at and give ourselves a sense of progress on. That is what’s going to yield more motivation, more inspiration, more power than if I go do this thing once. Case in point. I’ve done some standup comedy.
I’ve taken years of classes. I’ve performed it. I even placed in some local contests. Things like that. I enjoyed doing it. I did not do it because it was on a bucket list. I did it because I wanted to get inside of the machine of it and learn how it worked. See what skills I had and what I needed to get better at.
I’d never done standup before. I’d done a lot of speaking. Standup is very different. I went and took a class. When they went around the room and said, “Well, what brought you to this class? To go and do stand up is … That’s scary.”
One of the people in the room said, “It was just on my bucket list.” In my mind I was like, “Way to cop-out.” Because it’s like, “Nothing to see here. I might not be good, but it doesn’t matter. Because it’s just my list. I’m just checking it off the list.”
That person didn’t say that, but that’s how it comes across. Whereas, all of us there wanted to try it or we wouldn’t have paid the money and showed up. But don’t tell me you’re there to audit the class.
If you’re really going to do something and you’re really going to do it … Risk it and be in there with us. Don’t stand on the side and say, “Well, I’m just doing it to do it once.” Because doing standup once will teach you nothing.
Miriam Schulman:
The thing about really good standup comedy is that they make it seem so easy. They act like there’s this thing that just happened on the way to the club. They act like they’re …
Terri Trespicio:
It just happened on the way to the club.
Miriam Schulman:
Right? They’re acting like they’re making up the jokes right then. That takes a lot of practice and a lot of skill to have it be so effortless.
Terri Trespicio:
When you look at a great comic, you go, “That’s so easy. They’re just talking about things that happen in their life that are funny. Funny things happen to me. I could probably do that.” You know what? If you learn it, you can.
But lest you think anyone can stroll up there for five minutes and just wing it. You can. You’ll learn a lot. But not as much as you will when you learn the skill. Because even … I think it was a Seinfeld special years ago.
He was like, “I know you were all going to do this, right? But you just decided not to do it.” As if it’s not a very unique skill. I’ll tell you this. I took a class from a teacher named Jim David. He’s been doing comedy for decades. He makes his living from it.
He said, “You think you have to have a big personality to do comedy? You think you have to be some big, scary talent?” He’s like, “No. You don’t.” Plenty of the comics working today are not interesting. They do not have great personalities. They have a skill and they work hard at it.
You can too. All you need to know to do standup comedy is learn how to write a joke. Learn how to write a joke and deliver the joke. It’s not like, “I could never do that.” You could if you wanted to. But it’s easier to say, “Well, I couldn’t.”
Most people don’t want to do standup comedy, but it’s just one example. What about all the other things in our lives? We think we could, but we can’t. We’re too old. We’re not talented enough. We make up all kinds of stuff that is not relevant.
Miriam Schulman:
I sometimes will hear from people who say, “I’m too old for this. I’m 74.” I was like, “Really? Well, I have a client right now who is 78. She’s going to be 79. She’s working really hard on her art.”
Terri Trespicio:
When are you going to give up? Just roll over and die? Is that it? I have a friend in her forties who said, “Well, I want to change careers now. I’ve been a school principal for years. I really want to do something different.”
I was like, “That’s so exciting. This is exciting.” She’s like, “But don’t you think it’s hard for us? Our generation.” No. Who told you that? Who told you that it was hard? You told yourself that. You’re in your forties.
You’re going to just roll over and die? Wait till you decompose? You’re not going to take on anything new? Because you can’t? Because you’re too old? That makes me crazy. Especially, when women say it. Because they’re internalizing what people have said to them.
Miriam Schulman:
Women tend to play it small. It’s because we’re supposed to be skinny and not take up space.
Terri Trespicio:
We’re supposed to be 25 forever? That’s not even a real thing. You couldn’t make me go back to 25. You couldn’t pay me to be 25 again.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s so true. Why is it dangerous getting hung up on passion?
Terri Trespicio:
The danger is … When we’re hung up on a passion we think we’re supposed to have or know and don’t. If you are obsessed with a thing and focused and you’re pursuing it, no one should … I’m not going to get in your way. No one should get in your way.
But if you feel hung up. To me, that feels like maybe you’re stuck. Or you worry that you’re not living the life you’re supposed to be living. “I was supposed to do this.” There is no, “Supposed to,” is what I say over and over again.
I would want everyone to experience lots of passion in lots of areas of their lives. But this idea that by making one career choice or one life decision is supposed to yield boundless passion, unchecked emotional high, or unfettered focus … That just is not life.
To me, it’s not just a woman thing. But for women, I always point to the whole prince charming thing. Because what we used to be sold was that a man was coming to save you from yourself, from despair, from loneliness. That when and if that man finds you and you’re a good girl, then you’ll be rewarded with the attention and love of one man.
Now, some people really love that idea and they want to follow that. I won’t get in your way about that either. But what scares me is that I think we’ve swapped out the prince for passion. Thinking that once we find our one passion, my life will have meaning. I’ll know what my purpose is.
This is the same singular thinking that isn’t helpful. Because there isn’t any one thing you’re meant to do or follow or be. When we get into that thinking that there’s supposed to be one thing … Well, there’s a pretty good chance that we’re doing it wrong. And that’s where we get ourselves hung up.
Miriam Schulman:
One thing I want to say, because in my world, I help a lot of artists. There’s a lot of artists listening to the show. But even within that, it’s not like they’re done once they decide that they want to be an artist. Because one of the biggest questions I hear is, “How do I choose which medium or what to paint?”
They’re so hung up. Now, this is my words. They’re so hung up on they have to make the right choice. Should they be pastel? Should they be oil? “This is what’s more profitable. This is what I want to do.” They get very caught up that they end up doing nothing.
By staying in that indecision of they don’t know which medium to pick, they actually end up doing none of the things. What happens is that indecision lets them off the hook of taking those risks and actually moving forward with becoming an artist.
Terri Trespicio:
Yes. I was going to say … Isn’t it kind of convenient to get so stopped by the asset, the specific outcome of the art, that you just don’t do it? In my world it’s, “I don’t know if this is self-help or a memoir.”
Am I writing a novel or am I writing this? Should I tell the real story? They get so caught up in the details and the minutia of a specific asset. And I say, “Don’t make an asset of yourself. Stop thinking about the end product as determining of what’s worth your time.”
For writers, for people who love to use the page … I say you write and write and write. And then, you figure out what it is later. What do you say to artists when they say to you, “Should I do oil or pastel? What should I paint?” What do you tell them?
Miriam Schulman:
Well, everyone wants that Choose Your Own Adventure, where they’re going to know what’s the right answer. And then, maybe you can go back a few pages if you didn’t like what happened. And then, you pick the other path.
The truth is life is not a Choose Your Own Adventure book. What’s more important is you pick something and you put your attention into making it the right choice.
Terri Trespicio:
That’s right. Exactly. Guess what? If you hate it, you change. If you are working with oils and you’re like, “This is interesting, but I want to try something else.” That’s you evolving as an artist, I would imagine.
Miriam Schulman:
Of course.
Terri Trespicio:
It’s not like, “Well, you’re an oil person. That’s it. You got to stick with that until you die.”
Miriam Schulman:
Georgia O’Keeffe switched mediums. Lots of people switch mediums. It’s okay. It’s okay to do it. But the thing is, they didn’t do it on a weekly basis. They stayed with it for a while before they switched to something else. Let’s see …
Terri Trespicio:
What can you learn from it?
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly. What can we do with this first? Love that.
Terri Trespicio:
You learn. I love that you’re an artist and we can talk about this here. I don’t always get the chance to talk about it with an artist, is that I believe that the art … Or I call it the work. Whatever the work is. Whether it’s pastel, whether it’s memoir, it doesn’t matter.
That the work leads us. That the work teaches us. That it has a life and a flow and an energy that is separate from us. It’s of us, but separate. When you hear someone fussing over the actual type of work they’ll do, that shows me that they don’t trust the work.
The thing that allowed me … And I will say this as someone who has just written her first book. This is my first one. I did not go in going, “This is the book I’m going to write. And this is what it’s going to sound like. This is how it’s going to be outlined.” I didn’t really know.
I wrote and wrote and suggested to this agent and suggested to this publisher. And the publisher said, “We like this, but here’s what we think would do better.” And then, I wrote into that. I did not know what the book was going to be until very close to its deadline.
It’s not like I was clueless, but I was letting the work sort of follow me. What is the best thing for the reader to hear? What would help? Trust the work to lead you. That has changed my life. Rather than trying to fuss over it before it’s born.
Miriam Schulman:
By the way, I had the same experience. For me … When I was in your apartment, which was a year and a half ago, I didn’t know what I was going to write. And I let this be a collaborative experience as I got an agent and then to the publisher. Letting that evolve.
But one of the things that I learned from you, Terri, that I have to say really helped me through this whole process is that … I would just say to myself … Because I don’t know what I’m doing. I’ve never written a book before. I would say, “Ass in the chair.” Ugly words. Just let-
Terri Trespicio:
Ass in the chair. Meaning you’re showing up. You don’t have to know what the book is yet. First of all, your book isn’t due right this second.
Miriam Schulman:
… That’s actually due in two weeks.
Terri Trespicio:
Shoot. Okay. Well, you better figure it out. But that’s around the time when I got real clear.
Miriam Schulman:
I’m almost done with it, but there was a lot of drama along the way. You’re only talking to me now, where I’m on the other side of that imposter syndrome mountain. Now, it’s pretty much done.
I really want to ask you … We’re going in so many different directions, but we have to talk about the title of the book. Because Unfollow Your Passion is just so counterintuitive to what we’ve all been taught.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh, it definitely is.
Miriam Schulman:
Let’s unpack that.
Terri Trespicio:
If you are happily following your passion, don’t let me stop you. But if you worry that you didn’t find the right thing, or make the right choice, whatever. Unfollow your passion doesn’t mean ignore passion or avoid passion.
What it means to me is that we don’t have to chase it around and hope it leads us to the place of riches and happiness. Rather than do that … Rather than trying to chase it like you’re on a wild goose chase, what if we allowed passion to rise up wherever we are?
Maybe I’m not meant to be an oil painter. I don’t think I am. But maybe after I do it for a while, I think I want to change media. Okay, fine. Then, I allow that focus to come with me. Passion is portable. It doesn’t live in the land that you didn’t major in.
Miriam Schulman:
No.
Terri Trespicio:
Because if you think that way, then you’ll think you’re lost and I’ll never have it. The case in point that I have. The example is something lighthearted. Like a board game. I played a lot of board games over the recent holiday break.
I found it calming. I found it fun. I thought it was a really fun way to engage with family and friends that I hadn’t done in a long time. I was like, “How do you play this game? I don’t know.” I didn’t care about the game. I didn’t go, “We have to play my favorite game.”
I played games I’d never played. Within one game, I always lost the first game. Because I didn’t know what I was doing. By the second game, I got it. I figured it out. And I was like, oh my gosh. It was … It’s a game called Mexican Train.
Miriam Schulman:
The dominoes?
Terri Trespicio:
Yes. Dominoes game.
Miriam Schulman:
I love that game.
Terri Trespicio:
I love it.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s so much fun.
Terri Trespicio:
I was so into it while I was doing it. Would I ever answer the sentence, “What are you passionate about?” “Well, Mexican Train.” No. Of course not. But when I’m in it, it feels good. Because I bring the passion with me wherever I go.
I can be passionate about whatever’s in front of me at that moment. And I’m not saying, “Look at me. I’m special and I can do that.” It actually makes my life more fun. Rather than pining for it and thinking it’s out somewhere else … Where are we missing an opportunity to experience it right now?
Miriam Schulman:
One thing you said in the book, which I really liked, is the whole idea that you actually get passionate after you get good at something.
Miriam Schulman:
Which is something that … I forget the name of the author. Amy, something, something. In Tiger Mother. You may not have read the book.
Terri Trespicio:
No.
Miriam Schulman:
We criticize them, but then we secretly want to be these Tiger Mothers with these perfect children. I had to read that book very carefully. The whole idea with the tiger mom is that they force their kids to do things because they won’t enjoy it until they’ve put in that practice. And that makes them good.
They start to enjoy something after they’ve put in the training, the skills, the hours. All of those things that we’ve been talking about. That’s when the passion happens is after they get good at it. You don’t get good at it the first time you try it. This accidental genius at comedy like we were saying before.
Terri Trespicio:
Right.
Miriam Schulman:
You have to get really good at it to make it look effortless. To make it look easy until you really love it.
Terri Trespicio:
Until you feel it. Because what feels good is to feel yourself getting something. To feel yourself improving and mastering a thing. I do a lot of editing my own videos, which I basically taught myself to do. I had a little help. And then, I taught myself the rest on a program I’d never used.
Now, I’ve gotten so quick at it. I’m not a professional video editor. But for my stuff, I find I love it. I go into the zone and I’ve gotten better and better at it. Faster. I am not trying to be a professional video editor.
But that part of my life, when I have to sit down and do it, is a pleasure for reasons I could not have predicted. Can we allow the pleasure that rises? The passion, if you will, when we give ourselves a luxury. A focused time. Time to give ourselves a chance to feel good at something.
Even if you don’t want to do it forever. Someday, maybe I won’t have time to edit my own video. I’ll have to hire someone to just do that. But for now, I’m learning something. I think we underestimate that.
Miriam Schulman:
I love that. All right. I think everyone should go get her book. Unfollow Your Passion.
Terri Trespicio:
Thank you.
Miriam Schulman:
Wherever you prefer to buy your books. It’s in the stores. It’s in Barnes & Noble.
Terri Trespicio:
It is out. It is out now. It’s ahead of schedule, but it’s out, which is crazy.
Miriam Schulman:
This will air in January, so it’s definitely going to be out.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh. It’ll be out by then. But I’m saying it’s out. Literally, if you’re hearing us now. You can find it. You can order it.
Miriam Schulman:
Of course, I …
Terri Trespicio:
And I did the audio version too, so if you’d rather listen, that is totally okay.
Miriam Schulman:
Beautiful. Very funny. Make sure you’ve gone to the bathroom, because you will pee in your pants. It is so funny. Oh my gosh.
Terri Trespicio:
I’m so happy to hear you say that. Thank you.
Miriam Schulman:
I think I’ve made that joke three times though. We might edit it out. You don’t have to have it three times. That same joke. Okay. That’s one of the things I do, by the way. I tell jokes on the show that I’ve practiced with my therapists.
Terri Trespicio:
That’s good. She’s your first audience.
Miriam Schulman:
Her husband is like, “Stop it. This is too much money for you to be trying to do standup with a …”
Terri Trespicio:
You’ve got to work your tight five. You got to work it.
Miriam Schulman:
Make sure you get the book. Also, all the places where you can find Terri, you can find that …
Terri Trespicio:
Wait.
Miriam Schulman:
What?
Terri Trespicio:
Trying to add one thing. You can get the book wherever you want. But if you go to unfollowyourpassion.com and put in where you got it, you can join me for some fun stuff that we’re doing around the launch of the book for free.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, cool. Bonuses?
Terri Trespicio:
Yeah. Cool bonuses. We’re going to do some live stuff together.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay.
Terri Trespicio:
If you ever want to hang out with me again. If not, then you just get the book and we’ll never talk again. That’s fine.
Miriam Schulman:
You’ll find links to everything we talked about in the show notes, which you’ll find at schulmanart.com/177. We’ll make sure that we link to all the things Terri.
Terri Trespicio:
Thank you.
Miriam Schulman:
Because if you love her as much as I do, I’m sure you’re going want to connect with her after this. Don’t forget. If you liked this episode, you have to check out my free masterclass.
If you’re ready to learn what really works and escape the social media grind, go to schulmanart.com/sellmoreart. All right. Terri, do you have any last words for my listeners before we call this podcast complete?
Terri Trespicio:
I think my parting advice is this. Whenever you feel the squeeze of what you think you should be doing … Maybe someone tells you. They give you advice. “You know what you should be doing, Miriam? You know what you should do now?”
Always push back for a minute before you swallow advice and insight from other people. Always push back and buy yourself some time. Really check it against your gut. I think we’ve been told what to do for so long, that we might get used to it. It might be time, in the next year, to make new decisions for ourselves.
Miriam Schulman:
I love that. All right. Thank you so much for being with me here today. I’ll see you the same time, same place. Next week. Stay inspired.
Speaker 2:
Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place Podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/schulmanart, on Instagram @schulmanart, and of course on schulmanart.com.
Subscribe & Review in iTunes
Are you subscribed to my podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today. I don’t want you to miss an episode. I’m adding a bunch of bonus episodes to the mix and if you’re not subscribed there’s a good chance you’ll miss out on those. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!
Now if you’re feeling extra loving, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help other people find my podcast and they’re also fun for me to go in and read. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!