THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Chanti Zak:
Because you can be in a fallow season, and still create amazing art. You can be in a fallow season, and still be marketing, and still be actively building your business, or whatever it is that you’re working on. But there’s different emotional experience going on then, when you’re like, I really got this. I’m on fire.
Speaker 2:
It’s the Inspiration Place podcast with artist Miriam Schulman. Welcome to the Inspiration Place podcast. An art world insider podcast, full artist, by an artist, where each week we go behind the scenes, to uncover the perspiration, and inspiration behind the art. And now your host, Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman:
Well hello, passion maker. This is Miriam Schulman, your curator of inspiration, and you’re listening to episode number 190, of the Inspiration Place podcast. I’m so grateful that you’re here. Today, we’re talking all about seasons of creativity, as well as the seasons in your business. Now, if you’re looking to grow your creative business, I’d love to invite you to apply for a spot, inside my mastermind. I have two tracks of the artist incubator program, and the mastermind track is reserved for artists, who are already making sales from their art and have a website. To apply and see if you qualify, go to Schulmanart.com/biz, as in the letter B-I-Z.
I also have a second track in the incubator, and that’s actually open for artists of all levels. If you’ve been disappointed with your art sales, or feeling stuck in your marketing, I can help you with that. To learn more, go to Schulmanart.com/biz. Again, Schulmanart.com forward slash B-I-Z. And now, on with the show. Today’s guest is the creator of the empathy marketing ecosystem. She’s a quiz funnel strategist, growth consultant and coach, that’s obsessed with psychology, interactive marketing, and getting brag worthy results for her students and clients. She believes boring is the enemy. Neutral is a death sentence. And real talk is the way of the future. In her spare time, you can find her hanging with her three kiddos, learning how to homestead, or binge watching Chef’s Table. Please welcome, to the Inspiration Place, Chanti Zak. Well, hello Chanti, and welcome to the show.
Chanti Zak:
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. So, let’s talk first about those three kiddos, because mother’s day is coming up really soon. Anyone who hasn’t bought their mother, in their life something.
Chanti Zak:
Some beautiful art.
Miriam Schulman:
Some beautiful art.
Chanti Zak:
That’s what I’m looking forward to.
Miriam Schulman:
How many kids do you have? No, I mean, how old are they? We already said three.
Chanti Zak:
I have a one year old, just turned one.
Miriam Schulman:
So, you’re just getting started.
Chanti Zak:
Well, kind of. I had a bit of a gap, because I have an eight year old as well, and then his sister is two and a half.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, but that’s not a huge gap.
Chanti Zak:
[Crosstalk].
Miriam Schulman:
My brother is 10 years is younger than me.
Chanti Zak:
Wow. It’s good. It puts things in perspective. You don’t realize when you have your first baby, how fast it really does go. Even though, that’s the cliche, everyone tells you, but I get it. I’m like, hey, this little baby, he will not be a baby for long. I’m just soaking it up.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, the years go by quickly. It’s the hours that seem to track, like what’s going on here?
Chanti Zak:
Right. Or like last night, the 2:00 AM wake up, and then the 5:00 AM wake up, and you’re like, come on, figure the sleep thing out.
Miriam Schulman:
So, how are you able to balance your career, in motherhood, in this season of your life? Since, you have two young kids. Three actually, they are all young to me. I mean, my baby’s 21.
Chanti Zak:
I feel really grateful that, I was able to retire my hubs pretty early on. I think, my son was three when that happened. And then, he took over most of the parenting during the day, at least. So, that helps immensely, because otherwise, it would be really quite difficult.
Miriam Schulman:
I mean, when my kids were that age, I was just knee deep in diapers and nursing. And myself got put on pause, and then it wasn’t until my young, my oldest was, I want to say five that suddenly, I found pockets of time that I really wanted to create. And that it wasn’t going to be all about other people.
Chanti Zak:
Five is the magic age.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, there’s some other magic ages that are not so magical either. Like when my son turned 15, I thought I was going back to breast feeding. I was like, my God, I can’t let you out of my sight.
Chanti Zak:
[Crosstalk].
Miriam Schulman:
What happened to toilet training? That was so much easier, than what’s happening right now.
Chanti Zak:
Right.
Miriam Schulman:
So, we’re talking about seasons of being a mother, and seasons of your career, and you like to talk about seasons of creativity as well. Is that right? Is that the way you would put it Chanti?
Chanti Zak:
Yeah. I mean, I think there are seasons in all aspects of our lives, including our businesses, including our creative endeavors.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. So, do you have definitions of, it’s this or that? How do you define the different seasons?
Chanti Zak:
Well, I’ll walk you through them, because it’s not like a spring, summer, fall, winter type framework.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay.
Chanti Zak:
Of course, there’re probably listeners from all over the world, where you don’t always have winter necessarily.
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Chanti Zak:
But there still is a universal framework, when it comes to [inaudible] of creativity. And the first is, the fertile season. Sorry, the fallow season.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay.
Chanti Zak:
And the fallow season is like, really a period where you’re in this discovery phase. There’s a lot of stillness. There’s a lot of soul searching, and shadow stuff coming up, where you might not actually feel creative. You might feel like, you are an empty void, and you will never create anything good ever again, and there can be this sort of despair that will come.
Miriam Schulman:
And I just finished talking about that, with the guest from last week. So Carla Sonheim, we were discussing really the effect the pandemic has had, on a lot of us, whether it’s entrepreneurship or creativity, its all these things that we use to… That’s coping mechanisms or to fuel our creativity, and suddenly that’s taken away. And you’re still outputting things, if you’re in business for yourself, but you’re not inputting anything. And that has really taken a toll on a lot of people’s creativity. You felt the same way Chanti?
Chanti Zak:
Totally. And I’ve been there so many times, where there’s just this sort of hopelessness, that it feels like it’s never going to go away, but it’s transient. And if we allow it, there are a lot of gifts within the fallow season. Even if it doesn’t feel that way. So, the question in that season, because sometimes you have to keep on keeping on. Over the last two years for example, so many of us would’ve been really convenient, if we could have just paused. And for most people, that’s not the reality.
Miriam Schulman:
And you just had two babies during this entire… Did you have both babies during the pandemic? Is that right?
Chanti Zak:
Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay.
Chanti Zak:
The sleep deprivation. All the things happening [crosstalk]…
Miriam Schulman:
It’s almost good, to put them both at the same time. Let’s just get that all over with. I can’t do anything anyway. So, let’s just have a couple kids.
Chanti Zak:
Exactly. I know it worked out. But it wasn’t without its moments of like, my God, I don’t know if I’m ever going to be able to actually, do or create anything meaningful ever again. And that existential crisis, it’s so confronting.
Miriam Schulman:
It is. And there’s also the question that, a lot of artists ask themselves as like, what does it even mean? Why am I even doing this? So, when you start to ask each other those questions, you know you’re in trouble. It’s not that you’re in trouble. We all ask these questions. So, I’m not making a judgment. We all ask ourselves, and I’ve had those moments. I’m never going to paint anything good again. I have. Of course, it’s a lie. It’s not true, but it’s a thought I have, that comes up sometimes.
Chanti Zak:
Right. And I think that’s totally normal, but it’s not often talked about.
Miriam Schulman:
You’re right. It’s not. We don’t often talk about it. I think, the people who talk about it, are the beginners who just feel… They’re comfortable talking about it, because it feels like, that’s more real to them, than not real. And so, for those of us, who’ve made a career of it, and then we still have those feelings sometimes. They still pop up.
Chanti Zak:
It’s interesting, when you’ve maybe launched a collection, that was really successful, and the high dissipates, and you’re back to creation mode again, and it’s like, can I ever create something, that will live up to that? Can I experiment with new techniques and methods? Will that be successful? So, there’s a lot more question marks, when you’ve actually already done something, and done it well, and it was well received, and now it’s time to do something new.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s like J.K. Rowling, when she published a book under a pseudonym, because she didn’t want to live up to her own name.
Chanti Zak:
Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
She put out that casual vacancy under a pseudonym. I think, now it is under J.K. Rowling, because they needed to sell more books. But she didn’t want to put it with her name in the beginning. Not because she was ashamed of it, but I think, she didn’t want the pressure of it, living up to Harry Potter.
Chanti Zak:
So, what do you do if you can’t just [inaudible] your name, right?
Miriam Schulman:
Right.
Chanti Zak:
[crosstalk].
Miriam Schulman:
She changed it for the first one too. I mean J.K. Rowling, I think that was awesome. A pen name. It wasn’t really [crosstalk].
Chanti Zak:
Right. I forget the story behind that. If she didn’t want people to know that, she was a woman or something, to have that bias…
Miriam Schulman:
I think, that was it. There are other female authors throughout time, who have done things like that. Who is either published under a masculine pen name, or something that kind of hit their gender.
Chanti Zak:
So, this pressure in the fallow season, and when you have to keep going, how do you do that?
Miriam Schulman:
So, do you suggest people keep going, or do you suggest the pause?
Chanti Zak:
Well, if you can pause, that’s a beautiful thing, and coast when you can. But if you can’t, and that’s the reality, that’s okay too, because you can be in a fallow season, and still create amazing art. You can be in a fallow season, and still be marketing, and still be actively building your business, or whatever it is that you’re working on. But there’s different emotional experience going on than, when you’re like, I really got this. I’m on fire. It’s a different emotional experience.
And I think, you have to look at it through the lens of, how can I give myself some grace, in this season? How can I let it be easier? It doesn’t have to be a huge struggle. That can be a choice. So, what does that look like in say, marketing and still continuing to sell your art? Well, to me it would be, all right, what aspects of marketing feel easy to me? What do I enjoy? And what can I do without overthinking it, without it feeling like too much effort? And then, doing those things, and everything else. That massive list of, all the things you want to do, and create someday, giving yourself permission to put those things to the side.
Miriam Schulman:
I also encourage artists in my program, when they put out a big collection, and they need to pause. It’s more like, okay, well now, when you were in the creative mode of, creating whatever kind of art they are, fiber artists, paint or whatever it is. And you were putting more of your energy there. Well, maybe now it’s time to switch it to your marketing. So, it’s a different kind of output. But the other thing is, if you look at, let’s say, there’s a lot of different analogies I can go, but race car drivers for example, they stop.
It’s not that the race car can’t keep going around the track, but they know when they stop, and they do all those things, they do. I’m not really a big race car driver fan, but the things that I’ve seen them do, when I have watched, Will Ferrell pretended to be a race car driver. When he did those things, the reason they stop is because they can go faster. So, they win races by stopping, which says to us that, we need to stop sometimes too, to make sure we refuel. And there’s lots of analogies. There’s the Stephen Covey sharpen your saw. You can’t keep sawing at the tree. You have to stop, and sharpen the saw. You can’t say, I don’t have time to stop, because you can’t keep cutting a tree down, with a dull blade.
Chanti Zak:
Right. Exactly. So, how can it be easier? Maybe for an artist that looks like selling prints, instead of continuing to create original artwork. For me in my business, it looks like, okay, this launch model of pushing really hard, putting something new out into the world, being in total full on visibility mode, that when I had a newborn baby, and a little toddler wasn’t feasible. So, my way of making that easier on myself, was to put my program on [Evergreen]. And for it to be running in the background, instead of the big [inaudible]. So, it’s really an individually unique solution, but the solution is always there.
Miriam Schulman:
So, after the fallow season, what is the next season? And are these seasons, do they always run in the same cycle, or they’re not necessarily in the same order?
Chanti Zak:
They’re not necessarily in the same order, but I would say most commonly, the place that you get to after a fallow season, is the fertile season. So, this is a place of new beginnings, and new perspective, that you most likely gained from that fallow period. Where you get to experiment, and play around, and see what happens. And there’s no solidity in that, in terms of what’s going to come out of it. So, it can feel a bit like, you’re taking the leap, and just hoping you land on the other side. So, I feel like, most of the amazing art and beauty, that’s been created in this world, has been created in this fertile place of, moving through the dark shadowy experience, of not feeling creative, not feeling like you’ll ever do anything meaningful again. And then finally, you’ve got some energy, and inspiration. And so, that’s a fun place to be, but there’s a lot of uncertainty as well.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. And how many seasons are there? So, we have fallow, fertile, and then how many more? I’m assuming there’s a harvest.
Chanti Zak:
The final one is flourish, because I’m a fan of alliteration, but essentially it’s the harvest season.
Miriam Schulman:
Got it. Okay. Tell us what happens then.
Chanti Zak:
Well, that’s like, you are reaping the rewards, of all the work that you’ve done, in the fallow and the fertile season. When your creation’s out into the world, how they’re being received, and you’re really harvesting the bounty. This is a place of allowing yourself to fully receive, which can be extremely difficult for so many. Any givers who are listening, but you’ve done the work. And this is where you probably, are looking at things from more of a visibility perspective. How can I reach more people? How can I share these creations, with the world? And move through the mindset, stuff that comes up when you go to do that.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. So, what comes to my mind, since we started off this conversation, talking about motherhood, and mothers are the ultimate givers. I mean, we give over our whole body for these creation of human beings, and some of that doesn’t end, when the baby’s born. Especially, if you’re nursing. Especially, for us women who are expected to give, and now in our businesses, we need to allow receiving. What tips do you have, and not just for women, but for people who are having trouble receiving the abundance? Or they’re blocking it. Where do you suggest they start?
Chanti Zak:
Well, I’m kind of weird. I like to look at random magazines, and catalogs for super high end furniture, or even art. I was looking at a magazine, I found this chair, that just looks kind of like a regular chair, and the chair was listed at $30,000, for this chair. And you’re like, okay, this chair would not be in this magazine, if there were not people paying $30,000 for the chair.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s so funny, you brought that up, because this past week, this Tuesday, that’s exactly what I told one of my clients to do, who was having trouble raising our prices, because she had trouble thinking about, someone paying more than a thousand dollars for a painting. And I said, they’re paying $20,000 for the couch you got. I mean, not at what’s [crosstalk], but go on first dips, where did you find the $30,000 chair? Where was that?
Chanti Zak:
It might have actually been a Wired magazine, where they have a product roundup. So, just a random, but there’s so many. It’s everywhere. There are exactly like you said, couches, that people would gladly pay $80,000 for.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. And it’s the 12,000, it’s not even so outrageous. Even West Elm, you go for the hot nicest fabric, and maybe a little bigger and whatever, you’re talking about $12,000 couch. So, somebody who’s buying a $12,000 couch, they don’t put a $300 painting over a $12,000 couch.
Chanti Zak:
Exactly. It’s a story. Money is a story. Everyone has a different story around it. Value is a story. The story that you are telling yourself, is based on your experience of it. And the story [crosstalk].
Miriam Schulman:
And there’s thing, that we spend money on as artists, or whatever it is that you value in your life, that maybe other people won’t. People who may be only buy organic fruit, and other people wouldn’t spend that extra money. But when you’re talking about, these high end furniture and stuff, if you look at the price of rugs. And people are walking on them, they’re stepping on it. And they’re spending thousands of dollars on it.
Chanti Zak:
Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
It’s not going to last. It’s thousands of dollars, and there’s dogs all over it.
Chanti Zak:
Exactly. I think, that’s a powerful practice, and surrounding yourself with examples of people pricing, whether it’s their art or something else, at a level where you are like, I can’t even fathom that. And yet, you have the evidence right in front of you.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes.
Chanti Zak:
So, it’s happening. It can happen for you too. And it’s really shifting into a mindset of, well, why not me? I’ll play this game too. You’ve worked your whole life to build your skillset, and charging accordingly is a practice.
Miriam Schulman:
What I hear from people in my community, and my audience, and I’m sure you hear the same kinds of things is, they’re afraid if they raise their prices, they’re excluding people. But what they don’t see is, if they don’t raise their prices, they’re still excluding people. Like I just said, there’s that person who buys a $12,000 couch, will not look at art below a certain price. So, you are excluding actually your best customers possibly. Who have the money to buy your art, because you are trying to price to people, who may not even value it. And that’s why, they’re not willing to pay so much for it.
Chanti Zak:
Exactly. And you can’t be all the things for all the people. Especially as an artist, your time is finite. So, if you can make a really wonderful living, and then ask the question of, how can I take this money in the bank, and help the people I want to help? And then, you can do so from a place of, a bit more expansion, but when you’re just getting started, it’s like, how do you justify that?
Miriam Schulman:
So, do you have another suggestion, other than looking at high end stores, that you use or advise people you work with, to expand their abundance mindset?
Chanti Zak:
I mean, working on the story that you have around money. I think, as Kate Northrup’s book Money: A Love Story, and it’s sort of about that. But really, it can be as simple as asking yourself the question, what do I believe? What do I believe about money? Where did those beliefs come from? For me growing up, I always saw my dad, who was a business owner, correlating money with stress. So, that affiliation is neurologically embedded in my brain. And I have to constantly, untangle that idea, that abundance and lots of money has to equate to lots of stress, and lots of really hard work. And it doesn’t. I see examples of that constantly, in my peers, and the people in my life. So, I think that twofold approach can make a big difference.
Miriam Schulman:
A lot of times, when I’m working with my clients, it’s about pointing out to them, where they may have social and cultural programming. So, we talked earlier about women being givers, but also women, people of color, it’s not always safe, to play as big of a game as you need to succeed. And they’re keeping themselves small on purpose, without even realizing it. And because they’re having thoughts, that they’re perceiving as, no, this is the way it is. Rather than, no, this is what you think, because you’ve been taught to think that. Those thoughts are optional. So, really helping them unravel that programming. So Chanti, I know you have a quiz called the Unfair Advantage. The name is awesome by the way. I’m a quiz junkie, if I take that quiz, what will I find out about myself?
Chanti Zak:
I mean, you’ll find out what your star power is.
Miriam Schulman:
What is a star power? Wait, we didn’t talk about this.
Chanti Zak:
What are your strengths in the marketing world, or in the online business world, or even in the art world, can help you to communicate the value, you bring to the table.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. So, that sounds like a quiz, that we all need to take. And I think, you told me it’s chantizak.com/unfairadvantage. And what are the possible outcomes? Is there a certain number of outcomes, that you get from that quiz?
Chanti Zak:
My gosh. I should pull them up. Well, I get the rule breaker. That’s mine. And what are the other ones?
Miriam Schulman:
I’m a rule breaker too, but I might be something else. Go through the list of the different outcomes.
Chanti Zak:
There’s the specialist.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. That’s not me.
Chanti Zak:
So, this person is an expert, in a super specialized field, delivers a very bespoke blend of skills, and just is super niche typically. Then there’s the one track mind. And this is really the person, who’s just so committed to making big things happen, figuring stuff out. They’re gritty, and they’re willing to do the work, to refine their skillset, get really good at what they need to learn, in order to be successful. And they’ve got that resilience. And then, there’s the enchanter. And this person is really quite charismatic, and has a big heart, and isn’t afraid to use their voice. They’re kind of the natural marketer, it comes easily. Being on camera, not a problem. And then, there’s the teacher. And teachers are really all about… And that could be synonymous with the giver. Being generous, helping others, building community, and giving people a safe space to be themselves, and to feel seen and heard.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. So, we had rule breaker, specialist.
Chanti Zak:
One track mind.
Miriam Schulman:
One track mind, enchanter and teacher. I’m trying to guess, which one I’m going to be. I don’t know yet. I will take the quiz. And when this goes live, I will be posting it on social. If you take the quiz, make sure that you tag Chanti on social media, because she can’t wait to see what you got. So Chanti, what is your Instagram handle? Since, most of the artists here, are on Instagram.
Chanti Zak:
It’s just, @chantizak.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, and it’s C-H-A-N-T-I-Z as in zebra, A-K.
Chanti Zak:
You got it.
Miriam Schulman:
All right, everybody. Don’t forget, if you like this episode, you have to check out the artist incubator, it’s for artists who want to learn, how to improve their marketing, so that they go from, so-so sales to sold out. To learn more, go to schulmanart.com/biz. That’s schulmanart.com forward slash letter B, letter I, letter Z. Chanti, do you have any last words for our listeners, before we call this podcast complete?
Chanti Zak:
I would say, whatever season you are in, you’re in the right place. Roll with it, and know that change is the only constant.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s so beautiful. Thank you so much for being with me here today.
Chanti Zak:
Thank you so much.
Miriam Schulman:
All right, everyone. Thanks for being here. I’ll see you next week. Same time, same place. Stay inspired.
Speaker 2:
Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook, Facebook.com/schulmanart. On Instagram, @schulmanart. And of course on, schulmanart.com.
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