THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Capucine Jenkins:
It almost encodes a receipt. They’re called transactions. So basically, what can happen, when you buy an NFT, for example, it first has to be minted. An NFT has to be minted, and all that means is that data goes onto the blockchain. So that is the first source of provenance. So when someone buys that NFT, because it’s on the blockchain, you have to buy it on the blockchain. Then, now, you know who the next person who owns this NFT is. Which is why it’s kind of like an accountant’s log, because now you have every record of how someone has interacted or had a transaction with this data, with this block, with this asset, is another way of putting it, digital asset.
Speaker 2:
It’s The Inspiration Place Podcast with artist Miriam Schulman. Welcome to The Inspiration Place Podcast, an art world insider, a podcast full artist by an artist, where each week we go behind the scenes to uncover the perspiration and inspiration behind the art. And now your host, Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, hello, my passion maker. This is Miriam Schulman, your curator of inspiration, and you’re listening to episode number 238 of The Inspiration Place Podcast. So guess what we’re talking about today, NFTs. My mom asked me the other day, “What’s an NFT?” I says, “Well, I can tell you what it stands for, but I don’t think that’s going to help you.”
So NFT is non-fungible token, and if you still don’t understand what that means, don’t worry, that’s why I invited today’s guest. We have talked about it on the podcast before. So I interviewed Blake Jamieson and we’ll make sure that we link to his interview in the show notes, 238. So we’ll link back to that episode, because that’s an artist who is making money off of NFTs, super important. I have a lot of questions for today’s guest, so let me introduce her.
But right before we get there, so this is airing the end of December. We are less than a month away from my book hitting the store’s, Artpreneur. If you haven’t gotten your hands on it, what the heck are you waiting for? I do know that there’s international free shipping at Book Depository. So any of you international listeners who’ve been holding off because of that, we have linked that to the pre-order page. You’ll find it on Artpreneurbook.com.
And also as of this recording, but it’s not confirmed, so I don’t want to put it in the pod, in case I won’t have to edit it out, we will be having a live event, an in-person event on January 31st in New York City. Get your ticket. I want to meet you in person. I want to see you. I’ll sign your book. Let’s go. We will link something to that, probably on that same page as well as in the show notes. schulmanart.com/238. Okay, now on with the show.
Today’s guest is the Senior Manager of Digital Art and Curator of NFTs at Saatchi Art. Prior to joining Saatchi, she has worked in numerous museums, most notably at the High Museum of Art in Atlanta. I’ve been there. She later accepted research and sales strategy roles in prominent galleries, such as David Zwirner and Lévy Gorvy in New York. I know the first one, I don’t know the second one, we’ll have to ask our guest about that. Spanning a decade, her curatorial career has allowed her to organize historical and contemporary art exhibitions for major institutions, established galleries, and emerging NFT marketplaces. Please welcome to The Inspiration Place, Capucine Jenkins.
Hey, welcome to the show.
Capucine Jenkins:
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. So I’m super excited to talk to you about today’s topic and get to know you. And before we hit record, you started telling me about your background working with art history and civil rights. And so before we get into NFTs, I’d love to chat with you about that. So tell me about that background that you have. Because you went to Auburn University, which is, that’s in Alabama also?
Capucine Jenkins:
Yes. If you are familiar with SEC football at all, you are very familiar with Auburn.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. I’m not a football girl.
Capucine Jenkins:
No, I figured.
Miriam Schulman:
Because I didn’t know, I was like…
Capucine Jenkins:
For the listeners who know who Cam Newton is, he was a Heisman winner. That is our most recent claim to fame. So, yeah, that is Auburn in Alabama.
Miriam Schulman:
Yes. My niece got married the same weekend that University of Georgia was playing Alabama. I don’t think that was a good weekend for her to pick. Half the bridal party kept sneaking off to the bar to watch football. And that’s a big rivalry too, it wasn’t like…
Capucine Jenkins:
For sure. I also don’t really know that much about football. I only know as much as I was told.
Miriam Schulman:
My father died when I was five years old and my grandfather didn’t want me to be what he called a football widow, meaning, alone when my husband was off watching football. Meanwhile, I married a guy who could care less about football. He’s a baseball fan. So, anyway, all that football knowledge gone to waste, not that it mattered anyway. All these things we learn…
Capucine Jenkins:
I was at least able to hold a conversation at a bar with the knowledge that I had.
Miriam Schulman:
All my football knowledge dates back to 1986, when I was paying attention. After that, it’s like all over, and that’s how old I am. All right, so you are in Auburn and then you were starting to tell me about your art history background, because that’s really what our listeners are mostly interested in. Even the ones who like football are probably more interested in the art conversation.
Capucine Jenkins:
Yeah, no, I was really just talking about growing up in Montgomery, Alabama. And most of my exposure to museums at that point was really civil rights movement, historical sites, and museums. And so it seemed like a natural transition in college to curate for industrial sort of regional museums for three, four years. My first degree is in anthropology, sociocultural anthropology, so at some point I had gotten the art bug. It was probably when I started working at the High in the African art curatorial department.
I had an art history minor. I was just kind of curious. And after that period it kind of clicked to me, these two things kind of work in tandem and curating is what I want to do. There is no ambiguity about that. And this is prior to moving to New York and working in contemporary art galleries. Even Lévy Gorvy, the gallery that you hadn’t heard of-
Miriam Schulman:
That I probably mispronounced.
Capucine Jenkins:
Lévy Gorvy, yeah, it’s like now defunct in a way. The two owners, Dominique Lévy and Brett Gorvy, Christie’s alum, they had opened up a gallery together. It was on Madison and 73rd, so really kind of Upper East proper. And the kind of art that we’d worked with was mostly secondary market from post-war to contemporary. So that was, it’s sort of my experience working in New York is very gallery heavy. And about a year ago, sort of right when the August NFT boom happened, I sort of felt as if I kind of wanted a change from the art world. At that point, I had… What is the best way of putting it? Because I do still feel as if my pedigree is tied to the New York art world, and I’m never really going to leave that.
But I felt as if there was something really exciting about blockchain technology, but also NFTs for artists, in particular. If you’re working in a mega gallery or even smaller galleries, just really seeing up close how artists don’t really have a mid-tier place for them to be able to have a livelihood. It’s either you’re struggling or you get very lucky and get gallery representation.
So with NFTs I kind of saw that possibility. For context, I was also a provenance researcher for a while. So learning about the blockchain and that there’s this ledger that you can track artwork, of course, I was curious, because I was going to be out of a job if the art world actually recognized that there’s this new technology that can do my job. But I’d kind of fallen into curation, specifically for that reason, and kind of built out the curatorial component for 1stDibs and pre-launch. And then this opportunity at Saatchi sort of, truthfully, kind of fell into my lap. And it’s been great since then.
I mean it’s sort of exciting that, well, there are pros and cons, but it is really exciting that it seems like every place that I’ve been, you’re kind of starting from scratch and starting anew, so it really is space to explore innovation. Whereas, before in the art world, things are pretty established. Your collectors are old money. There’s just a kind of cadence and crowd and price point that you’re just kind of accustomed to.
And now you’re entering this new world where a collector could be Joe Schmo or someone from this tiny corner of the world that you would never under any other circumstances would have any kind of contact with. Now, you’re able to engage with those kinds of collectors and artists.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s great. So lots of questions about the NFTs, but I’m so excited to have someone to talk to about some of these exhibits I’ve seen in New York City. Hopefully, you’ve seen the same ones. I have. Did you go to The Met and see the pots from… Oh no, you haven’t seen them yet.
Capucine Jenkins:
Is this recent, this year?
Miriam Schulman:
Yes. The Edgefield pots, Hear Me Now. It’s like these slaves from… This is totally your major.
Capucine Jenkins:
No, it is.
Miriam Schulman:
This is your major. Oh my gosh. What are you doing? Do you belong to The Met? I will take you there. I will.
Capucine Jenkins:
So the thing is that sometimes I try to avoid The Met.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, really?
Capucine Jenkins:
It absolutely has to be… I have to be, essentially, dragged there.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. So you haven’t been to The Met. I will tell you there are three exhibits that are worth seeing. Hopefully, they’re still up. So the Edgefield Potters, they were, hopefully, I get this right from South Carolina. They were slaves who instead of picking cotton, they were creating pottery. And what’s interesting, so this is what I’m saying, this is totally your major, you would think that… And tell me to stop talking if you what I’m already talking about, this is also for the listeners who maybe didn’t listen to the other podcast. So you would think that someone who’s enslaved doesn’t have agency over their art. But that actually wasn’t true.
So Dave, and he later took the name Drake after he was emancipated, Dave Drake would actually write poems on his pots, which was a really brave act, considering that it was even illegal for slaves to be literate at that time. So I was very moved by that exhibit.
And the other exhibit I found very moving was, it was a 19th century sculpture of a Black slave called Why Born Enslaved! And they curated an entire exhibit around a sculpture by Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux, who was a French sculptor. But then they also included art by Edmonia Lewis and Kehinde Wiley. And so it was very interesting and very moving. I thought that was definitely worth seeing.
And then the third one is they have a new exhibit in the period rooms basically, I’m trying to grasp for the right word, to make note of Seneca Village, which had to make room for The Metropolitan Museum of Art. Maybe that’s why you don’t like visiting there.
Capucine Jenkins:
It’s like ancestral and an energy. No, it’s truly the tourists.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, it’s the tourists or the COVID?
Capucine Jenkins:
Yeah. I haven’t been… Well, am I lying to you? I think I’ve been once or twice this year. A friend of mine worked there, and I think there was a new curator within the last year or two. And these exhibitions don’t really quite sound like what The Met, typically… What’s just a part of their institutional program.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, the curating was really good too. So what I also liked, I don’t think I’d listened to it there, because I don’t like being on my phone in The Met and they no longer give you the audio guides, I think because of COVID. But when I went home, so you could actually look at it online, or anyone can look at it online who’s listening, you can listen to the audio of what they had, and they pull in different perspectives.
Rather than just having the old white male historian talking about these art, they pulled in different perspectives. So from anthropologists and from different people, so that you could have a multicultural perspective of the art that you were looking at. So I enjoyed that whole curatorial aspect too. So when you see it, email me and let me know.
Capucine Jenkins:
I will. I will, for sure. This is pretty fascinating,
Miriam Schulman:
Right? I’m like, okay, well, you don’t know about it, but that’s okay.
Capucine Jenkins:
I’m also angry at former colleagues and friends who haven’t told me about it, because I’m sure they have seen it. I’m almost certain they have.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah, what the hell?
Capucine Jenkins:
It’s their fault.
Miriam Schulman:
Well, but they’re thinking it’s your fault, you haven’t told them. Right? You’re the… Okay-
Capucine Jenkins:
Very true.
Miriam Schulman:
… touche, right.? Okay. All right, let’s move on. Okay, so here’s the thing that kind of trips me up with NFTs. I sort of get it, but not really. It’s digital art. Well, what’s the difference between a JPEG and an NFT? That’s what-
Capucine Jenkins:
Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
… I don’t get. That’s the million-dollar question.
Capucine Jenkins:
I mean, there is a very, very distinct difference. Basically, a JPEG is just data compiled into a file. And NFT is also data that can include a JPEG or any kind of image file in addition to other kinds of data. That could be the artwork description, it could be the artwork details. Within what’s called a smart contract, you can include all these kinds of stipulations. For example, and to be honest, I’m not sure, and I would love to see it, if an artist has included, for example, in an installation artist for whatever reason, has included stipulations about how their work should be displayed or understood or in an actual physical space, you can house all of that into this smart contract. It’s just data, essentially. But what’s different is that this data is being stored on the blockchain. So the blockchain, for the listeners is, essentially-
Miriam Schulman:
And me, because I don’t totally understand it. I mean, people explain this to me a few times, and I don’t quite understand the difference between NFTs and Schrute Bucks. It’s just like this made up thing. Okay, go ahead. Keep going.
Capucine Jenkins:
The best way I can put it, and maybe a good analogy is an accountant’s log. So it’s essentially a ledger that is public domain. Anyone can look at this ledger. And there are blocks on it that contain this data and basically sort of… What way can I put it? It encodes-
Miriam Schulman:
See, I have trouble understanding this, but I… Sorry, go ahead.
Capucine Jenkins:
No, it’s okay. It almost encodes a receipt. They’re called transactions. So basically, what can happen, when you buy an NFT, for example, it first has to be minted. The NFT has to be minted, and all that means is that data goes onto the blockchain. So that is the first source of provenance. So when someone buys that NFT, because it’s on the blockchain, you have to buy it on the blockchain. Then, now, you know who the next person who owns this NFT is. Which is why it’s kind of like an accountant’s log, because now you have every record of how someone has interacted or had a transaction with this data, with this block, with this asset, is another way of putting it, digital asset. Maybe it’s a little clearer.
Miriam Schulman:
No, you’re-
Capucine Jenkins:
But it’s-
Miriam Schulman:
… explaining it better than any… But maybe no one’s ever really explained it to me like this. So here’s another question I have, because I also hear about how the blockchain and NFT is bad for the environment. And that I don’t get at all, because it’s digital. So could you explain that? I know this is almost like a different thing, but, yeah, I don’t get it.
Capucine Jenkins:
Yeah. I mean, I only have a high level understanding myself, and not a technologist, but, essentially, when you have a transaction or transfer sort of an NFT on the blockchain, not Ethereum now, but what happens is the network goes through this, what they call a proof-of-work. I’m trying to figure out how to describe this. You could just describe it as proof-of-work, which essentially means that there’s more computational power that’s required for an NFT being transferred to another owner or for an interaction on the blockchain to happen.
So basically, I mean, any kind of computational power requires energy. Most of it has been streamlined and optimized in a way, where we don’t have to use so much, but we don’t really think about this very often. We just kind of use the internet and we use computers. But, ultimately, internet is just a crap ton of computers in Google’s basement, different sort of Web3 tech companies. It’s just original sort of almost Adam and Eve computers that have to work harder, because of interactions on the blockchain, basically.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. So wait, even though I’m sitting here at my computer and I don’t see carbon emissions coming out of my computer, what you’re saying is whenever we use computers, it’s using a lot more power than what we’re seeing. So all technology with digital computing, is that right?
Capucine Jenkins:
In a sense. I mean, in our laptops and phones, and I just know a listener who’s a developer is going to listen to this and write in.
Miriam Schulman:
Good. Please do.
Capucine Jenkins:
Yeah.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. Right. We don’t care if you set us straight. Also, the interaction, apparently it’s very good for the search engines and things like that.
Capucine Jenkins:
Great for the SEO.
Miriam Schulman:
Exactly.
Capucine Jenkins:
The laptops and phones, there are chips that make it much easier for that computational power to be convenient and sort of optimized, so that technically less energy is, maybe, I shouldn’t say less, but less enough power to where it’s not damaging in a way. It’s not technically connected to an ethernet. However, as we know, those chips are extractive, because they require minerals in some parts of Africa, and they’re wars around those minerals. And so it’s still also extractive. It’s not our laptops or phones are somehow exempt from destroying the environment.
But that’s sort of in a nutshell what that concern is. Now, however, Ethereum, I’m not sure if you’re aware of that blockchain network, but that’s the one that’s most popularized and most used. It seems to be just a better network overall. About a month ago there was a merge, which, essentially, means that the network moved from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake. So it requires less computational power in order for those blocks to actually have those transactions, is what that means. It sounds so esoteric and in some ways, it’s-
Miriam Schulman:
My eyes, eyes are glazing over. So we have this joke in my family, my father-in-law is a chicken farmer, and when he gets together with my husband, it’s my late father-in-law, he passed away, actually. So when he used to get together with my husband and my brother-in-law, they would talk trucks or they would do what we called coop talk. And whenever it was truck talk or coop talk, my eyes would just glaze over. So that was starting to happen just now, just so you know. It was like, okay, I don’t care. Can we talk about the exhibits again?
Capucine Jenkins:
Yeah. It’s one of those things that you would need to have a familiar analogy in order to understand it. It’s really not that difficult. It’s just that right now, and maybe we can get into this a little later, considering the market conditions and things like that, but it’s because the space is so not user friendly, and doesn’t really know how to sort of onboard is what the space calls it. But it’s really just educate people, the general public and the general user, bring them into the space, and help them understand how they can use the technology to their benefit.
Miriam Schulman:
See, I think what’s hard is for people of my generation, it’s not that I’m a technophobe, I went to MIT, actually, so it’s not like I’m a technophobe, but my generation, we didn’t… What’s that penguin game? Do you know? There’s Minecraft and then there was this penguin game that my son used to… He used to buy things for his imaginary penguin pet. I forget what [inaudible] it was called.
Anyway, my son’s generation, they’re used to having these imaginary things that they buy in these imaginary worlds. My son, by the way, he is 22, so you know what we’re talking about. And I’m in my 50s. If you’re just like wondering, how old is she? So people my age, it’s very different than my son’s generation who understands more this virtual world. It’s something that they kind of had a grasp on because of the gamification that they grew up with.
Capucine Jenkins:
Right. Yeah, no, your son is also 22, he’s Gen Z, so he doesn’t know a world without computers.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah.
Capucine Jenkins:
I mean, I’m saying that I’m aging myself, I’m probably not, but I do remember a time before the internet, before computers. By the time it had sort of reached my household, which was like mid ’90s, it was still just kind of this mysterious, how is this living in this box and there are pixels and there’s floppy disc? What does this do? Why is it not working? It was just this mysterious box that you knew that there are possibilities, but you didn’t quite speak the language yet.
I mean, also, too, to your point about possibly not being a technology folk, I sort of was, my second degree was in art history. And if you know anything about art history programs, some of the practices are perhaps archaic. And there’s a huge emphasis on writing, handwriting, and fascination with books and theory. And the idea of using technology and computers in particular to inform or develop your arguments or theories or whatever it is, was really looked down on.
And, again, we can probably get into it a little later, but I think there’s this understanding that art and tech are in contrast or even in conflict with each other. When, I think, NFTs actually do the job of bridging that gap.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. So let’s talk a little bit more now about what Saatchi is doing and how artists can learn how to make money for it. So before we get there though, I do have a question. Let’s just pretend I want to make money from an NFT, am I going to get paid with dollars? Ethereum? Cryptocurrency?
Capucine Jenkins:
Either. The most standard way of receiving payment is some kind of cryptocurrency. Ethereum, ETH, is most popular right now, and apart from Bitcoin is arguably the most profitable, but it’s also a currency. So you can convert that cryptocurrency into fiat. So USD, euros, whatever it is, it is possible to do that, so both. I mean, people are paying their rent with the money that they’ve made via cryptocurrency, that they’ve had to convert into fiat to do that.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. So now walk me through… I almost said pretend I’m an artist, I am an artist. Okay, so pretend I want to get started with NFTs and I have this beautiful portrait behind me of my daughter, which I would never sell. I do sell print. Selling a print is very different than selling an NFT that might have a JPEG of it. See, that’s where I get confused. Before we talk about the process, if I were to mint an, I’m using the words, mint an NFT-
Capucine Jenkins:
Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
… which has this JPEG attached to it, does that mean I can’t sell prints? Or…
Capucine Jenkins:
You certainly can. Now we’re getting into a conversation about IP. This sort of goes back to the provenance thing. If it’s just a JPEG and someone pulls that JPEG, someone who isn’t the owner, starts selling prints of this image, then the blockchain, because it’s public domain and transparent, has the information for you to know the authorship. Now, you know that Bob has owned it since 2016. Whoever is selling these prints doesn’t have the IP and doesn’t own the actual NFT. How you enforce that is? I mean, the courts, I don’t know if they’re even there yet.
Miriam Schulman:
Yeah. I don’t know what happened with Andy Warhol, by the way. Are you following that at all? Andy Warhol legally made a painting from a photographer’s image of Prince to Vanity Fair. And this was back in, I think, ’87 or so, during Prince’s hay day. But what happened is when Prince died, Vanity Fair took an image from Andy Warhol’s estate. They paid the estate to take a new image, but they didn’t pay the photographer to have the rights to do that. And they made a new cover on Vanity Fair, and it went all the way to Supreme Court.
And I’m the one who’s going to look stupid now, because it went to the Supreme Court, and I don’t know what happened. I remember hearing Clarence Thomas saying, “I used to be a Prince fan.” And I think it was Judge Sotomayor says, “Used to be?” Or no, it was Elena Kagan, I think, she said, “Used to be?” But I don’t know what happened, which is really the important part. So what happened? Okay, so all right, continue. So if I’m selling an NFT, am I selling the IP to also make the prints?
Capucine Jenkins:
Possibly.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay, so that’s part of the contract.
Capucine Jenkins:
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh.
Capucine Jenkins:
Because the IP can technically still belong to the artist. So the artist, whatever’s in the contract, because they own the copyright or the IP, they can continue to make prints, again, assuming that’s stipulated in the smart contract, while the current owner owns the NFT. So in essence, they own the artwork and the artist can now sell, I don’t know, reproductions, image reproductions or can print this image, too.
Miriam Schulman:
That makes me even more confused. Because what-
Capucine Jenkins:
Yeah, I figured.
Miriam Schulman:
… is really the value then of paying whatever it is, a 100 Ethereum for a JPEG of my daughter when you can’t even monetize it. It’s just bragging rights? Or…
Capucine Jenkins:
I guess the way to understand it is that, and this is actually an issue that digital art has kind of run into for years, decades even, is there isn’t this perception yet that NFTs can be the artwork itself. Like a JPEG image could just be the artwork itself, but the video could just be an artwork itself.
Miriam Schulman:
Right. So digital artists kind of understand this better. See, I have an actual physical object, but digital artists, sometimes the art is the JPED, right?
Capucine Jenkins:
Yes. Yeah, for sure.
Miriam Schulman:
Okay. So is this more a market for digital artists than it is for traditional?
Capucine Jenkins:
Wait, I’m sorry, what’s your question?
Miriam Schulman:
Is NFTs more appropriate for artists who work in the digital format than it is for artists who have actual physical artworks?
Capucine Jenkins:
It’s a much easier transition, for sure. I mean, I’ve encountered creators who were graphic designers or illustrators, had some Photoshop experience, it was much easier for them to fall into NFTs,, and really just get started, dip their feet in far before an artist who went to RISD and they have a 10-year painting career. And then, also, too, just thinking about academia and art training, so much of what’s tied to the excellence of art, sort of our caliber or metric for what’s good art has been about the physicality.
You’ll hear scholars say, “This work is very painterly,” or, “You feel as if you could see the brushstroke.” I’m obviously speaking specifically about painting right now, it’s so tied to the actual craftsmanship in the artwork that it’s difficult for people to see. And art lovers and definitely major collectors of modern and contemporary art, I’ll say that too, is to recognize that there is craftsmanship in digital artwork, you can also manipulate using software tools, a mouse, that they’re not quite understanding that painting with a paintbrush that can also be achieved and more using a mouse or using a table. That’s not being recognized as a legitimate form of an artistic process, a practice.
Miriam Schulman:
And there’s a lot of artists who use Procreate who are doing amazing things.
Capucine Jenkins:
Yeah. I mean, it’s funny, because, sure, you can own a jpeg, someone owns it and then someone else just kind of screenshots it or whatever. But now that our world is becoming increasingly online, in some people’s instance, almost exclusively online for people who are content creators and their entire job is to be online, and that’s how they learn, and that’s how they get better at what they do. Sometimes you just want to own a video, own an image. I mean, people do it with movies. You technically don’t have to buy a movie, but many people still do. I’m trying to pull familiar analogies so that it seems, at least to the listeners-
Miriam Schulman:
But it’s different than if I want to watch a movie and I need to buy the movie, but somebody else can buy the same movie. And with NFTs, isn’t what non-fungible means, it’s like there’s only one, right? Only one person can buy the movie. Am I right?
Capucine Jenkins:
Right. Yes. Yes, exactly.
Miriam Schulman:
All right. Now, I know you’re coming here through Saatchi. So how does Saatchi help artists do this? I hope there’s like a lot of training.
Capucine Jenkins:
Oh, yeah, for sure. So a lot of our program is site-wide, really. Many of our artists are physical artists. And when we started, definitely, with our Genesis drop, the other avatars that opened or launched in January of this year, this sort of passion and mission to pull in physical artists, educate them about this new technology, so really they can kind of expand their offerings, that was a really important point for us to do. I mean, much of our goal and objective really is to help growing artists and definitely emerging artists make a livelihood for themselves.
I mean, we really have a range of more growing artists to a little more established artists. But this is sort of that in between that I was alluding to earlier of you either get mega gallery representation, you really hit the jackpot, or you’re struggling. And Saatchi, and especially with our NFT program, we’re able to offer that possibility.
Miriam Schulman:
And by the way, I completely disagree that it’s a binary, because I help artists make money. And my clients, they come to me are not the ones in the mega galleries, in the stratosphere, The Gagosian. It’s not-
Capucine Jenkins:
Oh, no, totally.
Miriam Schulman:
… The Izzy Woods, but people who maybe they might be in a gallery in Canada or in Florida, or perhaps they’re just a self-representing artist. So there is a path. There is-
Capucine Jenkins:
Oh, 100%. That’s why we’re here, because there is a path.
Miriam Schulman:
There is a path.
Capucine Jenkins:
But I think many artists don’t realize that, or they’re not, I mean, certainly not taught in school by any means, how to be able to kind of capitalize or-
Miriam Schulman:
No they’re not.
Capucine Jenkins:
… monetize their work. So that they feel as if they have to become a banker or something in order to support their art.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s actually what I did. You’re laughing, you think I’m joking? No, no, I absolutely did that. I started off as an engineering major. I took art history. I finished with more art history classes than engineering. And I drank the Kool-Aid, you couldn’t make money as an artist. And I says, “Okay, so where’s the money?” And I went to Wall Street because I figured if I was doing it for the money, then I might as well be making as much money as possible when I was young. That was my attitude. It’s so funny, you [inaudible] say it like a joke, but that was actually my story.
Capucine Jenkins:
Funny, but actually the last podcast host that I spoke to, which was last week, had the exact same career trajectory.
Miriam Schulman:
Oh, really? Who is [inaudible] that? We’re not in competition. Who is it?
Capucine Jenkins:
What’s her name? I can send you the name of the podcast if you’re curious.
Miriam Schulman:
And I want my listener to know it’s not because I don’t want to tell you. Oh yeah, no, and I feel like we should look up what happened with the Supreme Court case.
Capucine Jenkins:
I hope your listeners listen to as many podcast about-
Miriam Schulman:
They do. They do. They probably know who it is, and say, [inaudible]. We are recording this in October, October 27th, and it was argued October 12th. So listeners, you probably know the answer, because of time travel, because you’re listening to this at the end of December.
All right, so bring this home for me. We’re still talking about NFTs as much as you and I, we’re geeking out on other stuff. So if you want to learn more, go to saatchiart.com/nft. And what is the very first thing they need to do, make a Saatchi account?
Capucine Jenkins:
Oh, yes, for sure. I mean, the first thing I would love for them to do is really, it’s like on our hero banner, the first thing you’ll see is our current NFT project. It’s called Vision of the Future. It’s an NFT photography auction and exhibition that was guest curated by a panel of jurors. It essentially was an open call that asked artists to sort of illustrate what they believe the future would look like. It’s sort of a little tied to sort of the mess of climate change right now, but also generally speaking, like, where do artists think we’re going?
So we had the exhibition at Saatchi Art’s art fair, it’s called the Other Art Fair. It has international fairs from Sydney to New York to LA. And so we had this exhibition last month in LA. It was really beautiful, if I do say so myself, great booth. There was a lot of really good reception. And the auction is being hosted right now on Artiva, and it’s essentially an application that ZORA supports, for any listeners who knows what that, who know what that means. But it will end of this year, so I believe the last week in December.
So those NFTs are up. And a part of one of Saatchi’s offerings and sort of what we call our Web 2.5 objective is offering limited edition prints. And for this auction, in particular, we’re offering in conjunction with the NFTs limited edition prints, three of them for buyers and collectors. So it’s really exciting. There are 55 photographs. All of the artists are from, I believe, over 20 countries are represented.
Miriam Schulman:
Great.
Capucine Jenkins:
All ages, all genders. So yeah, it’s really exciting for us. It’s kind of our baby. It’s also definitely something that’s up our alley. It’s a fine art exhibition.
Miriam Schulman:
Do you have to be juried in to mint an NFT with Saatchi?
Capucine Jenkins:
No, you don’t. There really isn’t necessarily a vetting process. It’s more or less bandwidth or what our team has the ability to do on the platform right now. We’re a non-exclusive platform, so we tend to kind of curatorialize through our exhibitions. So we’ll bring in anywhere from three to 50, or in the case of the other avatars, 150, artists, onboard them if they don’t have any NFT experience. And depending on whatever the project is or partnership is, kind of select that way. And then I guess guide them through that journey on getting started.
Miriam Schulman:
That’s fantastic. I’ve truly enjoyed talking to you today. All right. So I just want to remind our listeners to go to saatchiart.com/nft, check it out. I know, I definitely will.
And don’t forget that you can get Artpreneur. It’s going to be in your hands in just a few short weeks. The pre-order page has lots of bonuses for you, artpreneurbook.com. And, also, we’ll be having a live event in New York City on the launch date on January 31st. Place will be announced by the time that this airs, I just can’t say what it is right now, because I don’t really know for sure. I don’t want to have to edit this later. All right, Capucine, do you have any last words for our listeners before we call this podcast complete?
Capucine Jenkins:
This is more for creators and artists, I would really like them to know that NFTs are really a tool for them to be able to expand their practice.
Miriam Schulman:
Fantastic. All right, my friend, this sounds like something we all need to check out. I will see you the same time, same place next week. Until then, stay inspired. Oh, and happy New Year. Take care everyone.
Speaker 2:
Thank you for listening to The Inspiration Place Podcast. Connect with us on Facebook, at facebook.com/schulmanart, on Instagram. @schulmanart, and of course, on schulmanart.com.
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