THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Miriam Schulman: One of the ways that I talk about underwear and have talked about it for many years is actually in the creation of the artwork. So underwear is the first layer. And when I teach painting, we talk about those first layers. And sometimes when you are completed with a painting, especially if it’s something like either collage or oil painting, by the time you get to the end, you don’t see that first layer anymore. But it informs everything that follows it. So it’s actually the first layer that is the most important one.
Speaker 2: It’s the Inspiration Place podcast with artist Miriam Shulman. Welcome to the Inspiration Place Podcast, an Art World Insider podcast for artists by an artist where each week we go behind the scenes to uncover the perspiration and inspiration behind the art. And now your host, Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman: Hello, Artpreneur. This is Miriam Schulman, your curator of inspiration. And you’re listening to episode number 253 of The Inspiration Place podcast. Today we’re talking all about– Holy cow, I can’t believe I’m saying this underwear had something else there. I just crossed it off. Yes, we are talking all about underwear and lessons you can learn from underwear. To help me do that, I’ve invited stylist, life coach, author, former recovering lawyer and expert on all things underwear, apparently. And she has a eight-week style and coaching program, Judith, who helps women who have figured out their careers but not their closets and not their underwear drawer. And she helps these women see that when style and confidence are dialed in, they can do the work that they were created to do in the world. Her Ultimate Philosophy Confident Women Build Legacies. Please welcome to The Inspiration Place, Judith Gaton. Well, hey there, Judith. Welcome to the show.
Judith Gaton: Thank you for having me. I feel like we just like got in like a big theater and we just walked on the stage together and we’re wearing fabulous outfits, going to beautiful velvet chairs. Like I have that visual in my head now. It’s amazing. Thank you for that.
Miriam Schulman: That’s correct! I model my introduction after what Stephen Colbert does, like the like he the very last thing he says is, you know and our next guest wrote a memoir and blah, blah, blah. Please welcome Prince Harry. You know, it’s like you saved the best for last. Like the last thing you do is say, and here’s this person.
Judith Gaton: I was here for this. I was here for this. Thank you.
Miriam Schulman: So I met Judith and fell in love with her when I went to this event called Life Coach Live, which is–it was a little cultish, though. It was like it’s all these, like, life coaches and then they’re like ‘You’re not a life coach? Why aren’t you a life coach. You have to be a life coach.’ I was like, Oh, I didn’t know that was happening this weekend. But it was amazing. I fell in love with Judith because she did a presentation on, uh, know, it sounds like I don’t know what you did, but I absolutely did. I just don’t know.
Judith Gaton: You just mentioned it even a few seconds before. Impostor phenomenon.
Miriam Schulman: Impostor. Right. But she is a former drama nerd like me. So the whole thing was just so beautifully choreographed. And you talked about when you were in high school and how you raised money and how, you know, you had so much belief in yourself and all these things were these strong messages that I really wanted to bring to my audience of creatives. And I talk a lot about embracing your inner weirdo and bringing that style into your own personal style, into your art and your messaging. And you’re somebody who helps people really do that on a daily basis with their clothing. So it was such an important conversation that I wanted to bring you on to the show.
Judith Gaton: I’m glad to be here. I remember our conversation when I met you, you were showing me your jewelry and I think you had like a butterfly piece that you were showing me when we were outside.
Miriam Schulman: Oh yeah. I forget if it was a butterfly or a dragonfly. I think it was a dragonfly that said the bottom broke off during the weekend and I didn’t notice. So it was like. And the reason I like the dragonfly is because dragonfly is a symbol of transformation. Do you know this?
Judith Gaton: No, I’m not aware of this. Tell me. Tell me more.
Miriam Schulman: Okay. So. Yes. And so like butterflies, dragonflies start off life as a different kind of insect. They are beetles and they also go through a metamorphosis and they become—so they go from a beetle to a dragonfly. And that’s why dragonflies are often a symbol in ceremonies—like what are they called when people die at funerals, the ceremonies and those types of things, because it’s like life after death. But I like it as a symbol of reinvention because beyond the butterfly, it’s something else that also reinvents themselves. And it’s a very painful process to go from one insect form apparently to another. So yeah, that’s why I like that symbol.
Judith Gaton: I love that. Because you had pointed I think we had like we had a little chat and then I got pulled away. But that stuck out to me from that event. I don’t know what you were being proffered in terms of or solicited, but I remember that moment beautifully. And I think it lends itself to a part of the conversation I think we’re going to have today about reinvention and symbology. And I think underwear can be a really fun symbol in a place to kind of figure out what’s going on for you and where your next reinvention could be with a low barrier to entry, but also some tools and things that you can take in a meta-application. That’s why I love to talk about underwear. I have an aunt who thinks there’s something wrong with me because I talk about them way too much. According to her, which I think is very funny, but that I think, kind of lends itself to the greater conversation.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah. So I, too, like talking about underwear. And it’s interesting because it’s something that people don’t even see. If you think—Well, they do. Some people do. Well, most of the time, the underwear that you’re wearing, people don’t see it, and yet it affects a lot of things. Can you tell us more about that?
Judith Gaton: Yeah, I’d like to think of underwear as just like because it’s something that primarily we’ll say tongue in cheek, wink, wink that you see and you’re the only one who sees it. It’s one of the best places to start reconnecting your relationship with yourself, reconnecting with your body, taking care of yourself again, especially if there’s been a long absence from just even basic self-care. Like it’s a thing that’s closest to one of the most precious parts of you. And it’s so often neglected because we tell ourselves things like, ‘but nobody else sees it’. And I think even just as artists, it’s like, well, if no one else is going to see this or view it, should I still create it, right? I think I struggle with that. So many people do. So I think it was just like this great place to start of like, yeah, and you’re the one who matters, even if you’re the only one who sees it. Making this small change or tweak or finding comfort or finding freedom if you decide not to wear any whatever your pleasure just because you know, and it’s a secret between you and you, it could be such a cool place to get started to take care of yourself again.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah. One of the ways that I talk about underwear and have talked about it for many years is actually in the creation of the artwork. So underwear is the first layer. And when I teach painting, we talk about those first layers. And sometimes when you are completed with a painting, especially if it’s something like either collage or oil painting, by the time you get to the end, you don’t see that first layer anymore. But it informs everything that follows it. So it’s actually that first layer is the most important one.
Judith Gaton: Oh, I love that. And I mean, from a style perspective, there’s a reason we call them foundation garments. They literally provide the base for the rest of your clothing. I think sometimes what happens, at least from a style perspective when we talk about foundation garments, people automatically think of changing the silhouette of your body with shapewear. And I’m like, No, no, we don’t have to change your silhouette and we can get you a base layer that feels good, that feels comfortable that you can actually set and forget. And I love that you teach that in the art context. Like, I am a seamstress. I sew a lot of my own garments. Like, that first, seam I sew is usually going to be hidden within the greater garment. No one’s going to see it. But if it doesn’t lay flat or if it was janky or the thread wasn’t like any number of things that went wrong, then the whole thing is going to be off. No matter how much I press the hell out of it. Like the whole thing is going to be wonky, so I love that. Yeah. Foundationally, there’s that whole idea and the idea that if we start to pay attention to how they fit, we can start paying attention to our bodies again, which at least for my clients, a lot of them forget that they’re not ahead floating around in the world. They are ahead. That requires a body to be fully functioning and comfortable in order to do whatever their work is in the world without the distraction of ill-fitting undergarments.
Miriam Schulman: I love that. So I want to keep on your topic before I switch it to what my own underwear agenda. Like the things I teach about underwear. Or maybe not. So what is one of the first things you tell people when they’re going to start looking at the underwear that they’re wearing?
Judith Gaton: So I think a lot of times it’s like there’s this jump to like, I’m going to do an overhaul makeover montage or da da da. Right. And they’re like, I’m going to go buy a bunch of stuff. And I’m like, Wait, hold up. Let’s just tune in to what’s happening with what you’ve got on, because that’s going to give us a gold mine of information about what you need if you decide to purchase something. So it’s so interesting to me that, like so many women are just not paying attention. So one of the fun things we do initially is I’ll tell them like, just do a body scan. Top of your head, tip of your toes, all the way down. Are you noticing any discomfort? Are you noticing any negative pain? Not even just discomfort, like actual physical pain, which always blows my mind when there’s a lot of like. Oh yeah. And it could be something as simple as like, my ponytail was too tight and I have this terrible headache. So they take out their hair and they, like, shake their heads. And it’s just like this great, gorgeous feeling. They take off their bra because it’s really been digging into their flesh. You know, they, like–one client, love her so much. She had a pair of underwear that would drop underneath her belly and all day it was like this secret thing she would do to, like, wiggle them back up or, like, stick her hand in her pants to pull them up like those little things. It’s so annoying. So, like, just tune in and then suddenly we have a wealth of information that we didn’t have before. And some of it’s like, Hey, you haven’t–you’ve been ignoring pain, like actual physical pain, or you’re putting up with all this discomfort when you don’t need to. You have so much agency and authority over your life. Why would you put up with that? And then it’s kind of revelatory of like, how long were you aware of this? But you’ve been ignoring it and why?
Miriam Schulman: Hmmm. There’s so many things that we we do ignore that gives us discomfort and pain. And that was something that’s happened to a lot of us in the last few years, is that there’s nothing like a crisis to lift a veil on whatever’s not working in your life that you suddenly notice. Oh, actually, you know, just like you said. Well, there’s this pain of the underwear. There’s also this pain of, for you, why am–I’m just making things up now–why am I a lawyer? Why am I putting up with this? For me, it was like I was on Wall Street. Why am I putting up with all this misogyny? What the heck? Why am I doing this? So there’s nothing like a crisis that suddenly the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of changing. And we step into a place where we are willing to make changes. So I love that you are getting them to notice those pains first before asking them to change. [inaudible]
Judith Gaton: It’s a hard sell. Like if you have people who are smart cookies, high functioning, very successful, and if you’re like, That’s not working, you’re not there, you’re going to get their buy in. [inaudible] I’ve been ignoring her for 20 years. What does it matter? And I’m like, Really? Pay attention to it for a second. And I have some clients who are like, I can’t unsee it now. I can’t unfeel it. Like it’s everywhere. Everything’s janky. And I’m like, okay, hold on. Maybe not everything, but you can’t unsee it once you start to pay attention to yourself. And it’s funny because I was an attorney still practicing full-time at the beginning of the pandemic, and every trial attorney I know swore we could never do trial on Zoom or virtually, you know, not within our system. And I’m like, but the federal system has been doing it for years. But okay, sure. We can’t, like everybody insisted, we had to do everything in person, except now there’s a pandemic and we can’t all be in a crowded courtroom with people who are sick like that. Right. Or people who’ve been injured. And the type of law that I practice like we have to protect them. This makes no sense. So suddenly everybody was like. Telephonic conferences. You don’t have to drive for hours one day. Like one way to have a 20-minute conversation, like it was unthinkable suddenly what was so? Tolerable and normal and acceptable just like a week before. It’s I love the humans. But sometimes while we get in our own way.
Miriam Schulman: Right? And the thing that I talk about a lot. So this is when I wrote my book. The second chapter is Break Free The Golden Handcuffs is that so many of us think so much. And we’ve all heard this about the tigers, the metaphorical tigers and bears and sharks and whatever outside of our caves. But what we forget when we’re telling ourselves these stories that self-sabotage us, what we forget are the snakes inside the cave. Like the pain of staying the same. There are snakes in there with us. So, you know, there’s that pain of like wearing the janky underwear. There’s the pain of staying in the job that no longer fits you. There’s these pains that go along with it. Now, I wanted to change gears just a little bit. Still talking about underwear, though. So what I talk about with underwear is I love looking at all the different messaging that different underwear companies put out. So we have everything from underwear that comes in a ten-pack` for 1497. So $1.49 per underwear all the way up to like $400 plus. And when you look at the different messaging, those underwear companies really understand the successful ones, really understand what it is that will motivate a woman to spend $30, $40, $60 for a pair of underwear when she has the option of buying one for $1.49. And one of the ones that really stood out to me was Natori. Are you familiar with Natori?
Judith Gaton: Yes. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman: So what she talks about in her messaging or actually Neiman Marcus put it into the listing. So maybe Neiman Marcus is the ones that understand it. But what they put into the listing was her backstory about how she was this woman who left finance and wanted to make women feel comfortable. And I related so much to that story. I was like, ‘Hmm. I didn’t know I wanted a pair of Natori underwear, but now I think I do.’ So how do you–when you start to, if you’re thinking about the foundation of underwear and all the different price points, I’m just curious from the buyer perspective that the people that you work with, how that pricing gets parsed out when they’re looking at their [inaudible]
Judith Gaton: I’m not kidding. We literally had a class on this yesterday in our membership. So one of–lingerie month is happening. If you’re listening to this in the future, in February of 2023, we’re doing lingerie month within Modern Charm school and our Wealth Call, which is our second call of the month, we did a whole topic of perceived value and we use lingerie as the illustration to teach the marketing economic concept of perceived value. So I’m like geeking out. I’m trying not to like go.
Miriam Schulman: Let’s do it. That’s why we’re having this conversation.
Judith Gaton: So I mean, there’s multiple factors. There’s actually mathematical models that they use to talk about perceived value. And let me just clarify for those of you who don’t know what I mean by perceived value. So it’s the perception that a consumer has in their mind about the quality of a product, the value of the product as it relates to its usefulness to them. There’s a whole utility metrics and as compared to other things in the market. Now one of the really interesting things if you really deep dive and I will try to keep this as understandable as possible, one of the things that affects perceived value is pricing. Yep. So it’s so fascinating how we play with pricing to override. And this is what I was talking about with my clients yesterday. There’s a difference between our perception of something and our evaluation of it. And we have to be really careful as consumers and I think particularly for those who are socialized as women consumers, how the evaluative process gets hijacked because of the way we price a product, the way that we get certain images to represent or not represent us with regard to a product or the overemphasis on that, you need it to achieve some sort of social status. Et cetera. Et cetera. So what’s so interesting is when we slow it down, we get to ask ourselves, as consumers, did the evaluation process get hijacked because they priced it in such a way that suddenly it had this appeal?
So in the example of lingerie, if I’m pricing for basement bargain prices, a ten pack of Hanes, if you’re in the market for a bargain? So appealing. And there’s nothing wrong with Hanes or Jockeys or any of those lower-priced items. In fact, some of my clients, that’s where they start. That’s beautiful. But for some of my clients, like La Perla, Victoria’s Secret back in the day. There’s a number of Italian lingerie brands. When we raise the price, we’re playing with the perceived value of the good because of the status that’s tied to it, because of what’s called charming pricing and ending things in the number nine and beginning in the lower number. Like there’s a whole system here. And one of the things we really took a lot of time on yesterday was the idea of self-congruity. So self congruity plays out in two ways. There’s actual self-congruity. Are they showing realistic images of women that look like you, that have skin like you, that have aged, the way that you’ve aged, that have your skin color, hair, texture, size, weight shape, Right? Or is there actual self-congruity with reality? As I showed my class, multiple images of different types of women and different types of lingerie and said, just what’s your visceral reaction to this? And if it’s a no, I just want you to pause and find out why.
And then there’s the idea of ideal congruity. And it’s not that this image looks like you. It’s that we know it looks nothing like you because it’s been perfected, photoshopped. This human looks a very particular way that’s considered beautiful by normal standards. So we’re not actually going to deal with self-congruity that they look like you. We’re going to play on the idea that we know you could never look like this. So if you want a little taste of what it would feel like to be that person in that idealized body, you can pay to play and it gets an aspirational person like purely aspirational purchase versus an inspirational one. An inspirational purchase is all about self-congruity. That’s actual. It’s inspiring you to be more like yourself. Ideal self-congruity, we’re just playing with the ideal knowing that you can achieve it. We’re giving you an aspirational purchase. So that we can give you that dopamine hit without the reality. So much of marketing plays with that ideal congruity as opposed to actual. Now the tide is turning when it comes to underwear. Dramatically.
Miriam Schulman: Totally. Like and interesting is, as you’re talking, I’m thinking about how well I didn’t teach in my book how to like trick people. So, you know, what I’m talking about is really from the consumer point of view, how when you so there’s that self-actualization piece, like what does buying this underwear say about me when I’m purchasing it? And then also looking at, well, why would somebody pay $400 for a pair of underwear? Well, maybe because, like you said, like PIA, which is a very inclusive underwear brand. I don’t know if that came up in your master class in Charm school, but that’s definitely a brand worth looking into. So it’s a very inclusive brand, both ethnically as well as size. And there are some other places like that as well where they are appealing not just to be thin and sexy like Victoria’s Secret of the past. I know they’re changing, wink, wink, but yeah.
Judith Gaton: Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, sort of, kind of right. Like, you know. But there is that, you know, the people who are looking more for, they want something that represents themselves. Are they willing to pay more for it? Yeah. Yes, they are. So those are like very powerful messages for, for us as so the people that I teach who are artists that you have to understand that you need to put your values into your messaging and so that people can see you as like a PIA underwear brand where it’s something that you they want to aspire to, that they want to be part of this thing. Now, something else, Judith, that I’m sure you talk about in Modern Charm school, what I talk about is when somebody is going to invest in a luxury product such as an original painting or a $400 pair of underwear, or maybe you don’t talk about $400, but let’s just say we do.
Judith Gaton: We totally La Perla came up yesterday for sure.
Miriam Schulman: Okay. So the idea is when I go to a store, when I, Miriam, go to a store, I’m not making a decision whether this 3000–let’s use 300. This $300 pair of underwear is worth $300. I’m making a decision whether I, Miriam Shulman, is worth spending $300 on.
Judith Gaton: We talked about this a little and this is the quote that I pulled from one of the scholarly articles about perceived value and self-congruity. And one of the things the author said was, we buy who we want to be.
Miriam Schulman: Correct.
Judith Gaton: And I was just like, dang. I mean, the whole–during the class, we were like, dang, like, whoa. But so true for most of us. And there’s nothing wrong with it. And I don’t think every marketer out there is out to trick us. I think the key is as people who are creating content or creating art or products and it’s consumers of art and products, it’s just good to be aware of. Okay, what’s affecting my evaluation process in this particular moment? If it’s because I just want to say I bought a piece of this particular thing and I’m excited by it. You do you, boo. You always get to decide, but just be really cognizant as we’re creating what pain points are we triggering in people and do we like our own motivations for touching on those pain points? Again, we totally get to decide. It’s just something I think we should all collectively be really cognizant of. And I think art and underwear, really great way to illustrate those points.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah. Because ultimately, you know, it’s not just about the pain because if it was just solving the problem, you know, toilet paper solves a problem. $1.49 pair of underwear solves the problem. If I want to wear underwear, I personally only wore those underwear when I had my period. So you call them.
Judith Gaton: I have a lot of clients who choose to have underwear free, and there’s some clients who have like actual physical medical conditions where it’s not healthy for them to wear it. So we talk about having a commando experience that’s a better one, just like I have clients who go bra-free and some of them I’m like, You need to stop wearing one because your doctor has told you. Then we talk about how to rob a bra-free moment. We’re never pressuring anyone into doing anything that’s not good for them. You know.
Miriam Schulman: Beautiful. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about the decluttering process. So I recently moved from my home in the suburbs to an apartment in New York City where I had five–I’m very grateful, and it makes me sound like a spoiled brat when I say this. But in my home in the suburbs, I had five walk-in closets. They weren’t all mine. They were just throughout the house and in my city apartment. We have-I have like now, you know, a shallow half a closet basically from all my clothes. So we got rid of pretty much everything that we owned when we moved here. And it was so interesting because through that process, I felt like I was preparing for the afterlife. Like, what am I allowed to bring with me into my pyramid? You know, what is going to go with me? And it was choosing between my old life, Do I want to hold on to this thing? That I have sentimental value around that represents my old life, or do I need to make room for my new life? And this doesn’t get to come along with me on the new life because I just don’t have space for it. And I rather choose this new life. Talk to me, Judith, about when you’re helping women with their clothing choices and the decluttering. What kind of, um. What are you using? Those problem-solving. You know about that. How do you help them with that?
Judith Gaton: So I like to start them out with the analogy that, like, you’re the leading person, the leading lady of your life and all the clothing is auditioning for you and at different stages of your life, things have to re-audition like they don’t just get automatically in the next season. Every piece of clothing is up for re-auditioning and some of them are just not going to make the cut because of this stage and the movie of your life, it doesn’t make any sense. Like it just truly makes no sense. Like I have clients who now own ranches. I have a client who’s a rancher for her white crisp button-ups don’t make any sense when she’s like mucking horse shit like that makes no sense for her. So as the leading lady in this iteration of her movie, it doesn’t make sense. So I think that analogy is just such a helpful place. It’s just an empowering place to come from because then all the clothes are queuing up for you and this long line may be around the corner down the street. For some of my clients, every piece is up for grabs and for termination and like lovingly like, thank you so much for your service going in a different direction. It’s time to move on now. So that I think is just helpful in terms of like a mindset to adopt. And then the three sort of things I ask them to go through is, does it fit your physical body right now? Does it fit your lifestyle right now and does it actually fit your current personal preferences? Your current personal style. So we talk about fit in the three expansive ways and a lot of stuff gets eliminated. Usually the first round, it doesn’t fit their physical body currently. By the time we get to lifestyle, that’s another sort of culling process. And then personal style is where things get really cemented and I find it a lot easier to let go of things. By the time you enter into that round.
Miriam Schulman: You know, one thing I find very difficult, particularly for women who reach their 40s and 50s where they have put themselves on the back burner their whole life is they don’t really know what their personal style is. And this becomes something that they need to sort out if they’re going to be making art in their own style, if they’re going to be building a business that’s their own style and not just copying like a guru that they saw. So when it comes to clothing, how do you help people find their personal style?
Judith Gaton: So we walk them through a framework and it’s a series of questions that oftentimes they get like, Why are you asking me this? Some frustration. But it’s really simple questions like, what is your most worn clothing item currently? And how do you feel about yourself when you’re wearing it? What is your favorite piece of clothing of all time and how did you feel about yourself when you were wearing it and kind of teasing out and extrapolating out from there what we develop, what we call a personal style statement, and that just becomes a guidepost for how they want to show up in the world in this particular season, how they like to dress themselves in the season, how they like to create. We like to take personal style statements and what we call going meta. So like, for example, I have a client who, um, emergency room doctor, and hers is like Funky Rebel, which sounds funny for an emergency room doctor, but if you meet her, it totally makes sense. What’s so fun is I asked her, Okay, take that to your closet, take that the next time you go shopping. But also take that idea. I’m the woman who’s a funky rebel to the next hard conversation that you have to have. How do you show up differently the next time You have to make a decision in your business and you show up in that way? Like, how does that affect? And it’s kind of cool that we get to apply this in different areas.
So she gets to create and be from this style statement. And there the cool thing I think about the way we do it in my program is it’s not categorical like we normally think of like, are you bohemian or classic or these this is going to change for you over time. Like you get to what we call like think like a designer for this season, like there’s going to be some mainstays, right? Chanel, there’s the box Tweed Bouclé jacket. We’re going to expect that every season at Chanel. We’re going to see some iteration of that, but there’s iterations of it and we get to change and morph like that. Fashion house will have rules, but then you get to play within those rules. Some of my clients have values in terms of modesty. They have to keep their head covered or whatever the case may be. Those are not going to be change for them. They get to still play within those parameters. So it’s kind of a fun exercise, especially since so many of my clients come to me and say, I don’t know what my style is. I never did. You do not like your current one, but you do. You have one? Yeah.
Miriam Schulman: What I like to say is everybody has it. You just don’t know what it is yet. And it’s like a process of uncovering it. All right. This was so much fun to get this chance to chat with you today. So we’ve talked a lot about Modern Charm school, but I know that you also have an underwear freebie. Tell us about that. Yes.
Judith Gaton: So if you’re kind of like, okay, I got to figure out this underwear stuff, maybe between Miriam and I, we’ve convinced you that maybe you need some judging so you can go to judithgaton.com/undies. And there is a free guide called Bye-Bye Janky Bras and Undies. And it’ll help you diagnose your top common fitting issues and make recommendations for what might work better for you based on whatever the issues you’re currently facing with your bras and undies.
Miriam Schulman: Perfect. Okay, so we’re going to have the link to her website and the undies in the show notes schulmanart.com/253 and also have a little gift for you too. So I have an e-book called Uncovering Your Personal Style. It’s not about clothing. It’s about really about your creativity and your art. I used to sell this for $48, but now I give it away for free. But you have to do something for me. So if you have not left a review yet for my podcast, go leave a review, take a screenshot of it, and email it to us and then we will give you that style guide absolutely free. And if you haven’t picked up my book Artpreneur, I talk a lot about underwear and think like an abundant artist. I give you 14 lessons for thinking like an abundant artist, and there’s plenty of different underwear brands that I talk about to use as examples throughout. So this was a very lingerie-specific episode. Thank you, Judith for joining me.
Judith Gaton: I was here for this. This is amazing. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman: Okay. So do you have any last words for the listeners before we call this podcast complete?
Judith Gaton: I think just let this be fun, y’all. Like whatever makeover process you’re going through, whatever, cleaning out, decluttering process you’re going through. Like find a place to let this be fun again. I think sometimes these topics can be so daunting and so heavy and they don’t need to be always.
Miriam Schulman: That’s so awesome. All right, my friend. So thank you so much for being with me here today. I’ll see you the same time, same place next week. Until then, stay inspired.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to The Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/schulmanart on Instagram @schulmanart and of course, on SchulmanArt.com.
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