THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
Miriam Schulman: Today we have a dyslexic serial, entrepreneur, philanthropist and investor who grew up in London’s East End, where he was told by teachers he wouldn’t amount to anything. Despite leaving school with no qualifications, he started multiple businesses, became a multimillionaire in his twenties and featured in a prime time TV show that followed him. Our guest today decided to write this dyslexic edge which challenges the narrative that views dyslexia as a deficit or impediment to success, presenting compelling research and case studies from interviewing some of the world’s most successful dyslexics to demonstrate quite the opposite. Please welcome to the Inspiration Place, Jamie Waller.
Miriam Schulman: Well, hey, there, Jamie, welcome.
Jamie Waller: Hey! Thank you for having me. I’m I really appreciate being given the platform to talk.
Miriam Schulman: Well, you’re a good fit for my audience, because, as I told you before, we hit record, this is a show primarily for creatives and entrepreneurs, and there’s quite a lot of neurodiversity among my audience. As you point out in the opening of your book, I was, I don’t know if you know that stat off the top of your head? I wasn’t surprised by it at all, though you said something like 40% of entrepreneurs sometimes.
Jamie Waller: Yeah, so 30, 35% of entrepreneurs are dyslexic, 40% of self-made millionaires. But unfortunately, so are 50% of the Us prison population. So this.
Miriam Schulman: Right. It could go either way.
Jamie Waller: It can go either way. Well, you can imagine the sort of the characteristics of an entrepreneur are… You know, that very much. Go out and get it, and if you’re going out and getting it, it’s because you’re from a Ghetto or a place where you just don’t see any other way out, then that going out getting it might be robbing a bank or or robbing somebody. It’s unfortunate, but it’s the reality.
Miriam Schulman: Well, it’s also I don’t know if you’ll agree with this, but I feel it’s much easier for me to take risks than somebody who is neurotypical. And and let me just back things up for those who have not been listening to my podcast forever and have not digested every word of my book. And for Jamie himself, who doesn’t really know me that well, so when I was in college I was diagnosed with. We were not PC. Back then. We did call them learning disabilities, and I was told it was not exactly dyslexia. It was audiological processing which causes me to mix up like digits numbers. I’m the Queen of Malpropisms.
Miriam Schulman: It’s a good thing I’m not running for President. Let’s just put it that way. So I like my word, retrieval is terrible. Yes. So I was diagnosed actually in college which meant that I was compensating all that time, so I actually fortunately never did see myself as as you did, as not being bright. I didn’t see myself that way. But I did always know I had this thing where, if I wasn’t careful, I could… Things could go really bad.
Miriam Schulman: So that was my experience. When did you discover that you were dyslexic.
Jamie Waller: But I guess I mean dyslexia. I was born in 1979. Dyslexia wasn’t really a thing, you know. We were all just convinced that we were not as bright as as the rest of our peers. I knew I was. I knew that I was different from a very young age 8 or 9. I knew I was dyslexic, probably at the age 15 16, when I simply couldn’t sit any Gcses, which was our sort of standard leaving school exams. But, to be honest with you, I spent the rest of. I spent the next 20 years trying to hide it, because I honestly thought that if I was discovered I wouldn’t do well in business, and you know I just wanted to be.
Jamie Waller: I just wanted. I grew up in a very poor part of London. My parents were very poor, so I just simply wanted to be successful and rich. So I spent the next 20 years trying to hide it, and it was only when I was 36, I sold my 1st business for 75 million dollars that I felt confident enough to go. Okay, you know what. Actually, I am dyslexic. And so what?
Jamie Waller: This is my story. And I really felt a big pull towards helping others, because it when I I called it the day I came out when I came out. It was a huge weight lifted off my shoulders. It was like being born again. It was just remarkable, and the fact that I carried it around for 36 years, not feeling that I could just come out and tell the truth was just horrendous. So you know, the main drive behind the book is to give people the confidence to either, have their children tested, get themselves tested, have their parents tested.
Jamie Waller: One of the conversations I have quite a lot lately is, if you think your parents might be dyslexic, give them the benefit of knowing that before they go to their grave, because they’re not stupid, they’re not any less able. Dyslexia does not equal low IQ. I feature dyslexics within the book that have Mbas. From some of the most famous, well renowned universities on earth. The reality is that dyslexia is nothing more than a badge that’s been given to people that learn differently.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah. And I think in your book. We can acknowledge that a lot of people who have dyslexia probably also have other things going on like Adhd or or like me, ideological processing, or something out, that there’s usually like a mixture. It’s not only one thing. Would you agree with that?
Jamie Waller: Yeah. I would. And I think it’s really important that you point that out, because a lot of people say, Well, you know what are the traits of dyslexic people, and if you capture somebody like me, that’s dyslexic and Adhd, it could be quite easy for me to cross over from my experiences and they might not be solely related to dyslexia. They might be my traits that are more aligned to Adhd.
Jamie Waller: So one of the things I did with this book is, I went out and interviewed a number of academics, and we came across a professor at Cambridge University here in the UK who was who was dyslexic herself, and and I decided to work with her on this book, because it was really important that we told the reader the truth. What I find a lot with books these days is, people can go out, and, you know, put pen to paper. And all of a sudden people that read it, believe it is factual. It was really important for me to make sure that we tested everything. So we weren’t given information to people that simply wasn’t wasn’t correct.
Miriam Schulman: So that brought me to my next question. So I see you co-wrote it with somebody. How much of a challenge was your dyslexia in writing.
Jamie Waller: So this is my second book, my 1st one, published in 2017. But I I think the dyslexia part… I love writing. I’m a creative. I’m curious. I’m a curious creative. So for me, actually, the fact that I can’t spell well doesn’t prevent me from penning what I pen to paper is very readable.
Jamie Waller: Actually, I used to once write for Forbes the business magazine, a monthly column, and they were always blown away. That I just did this in sort of 20 min, and it would be publishable straight away, because I can get my thoughts and my creativity onto paper. Really? Well, what was much more difficult for me, and I think it’s more aligned to my Adhd than it is my dyslexia is. I then become obsessive about the editing process. So I spend, I mean, I read this book before it went to print. I must have read this book, and this is no exaggeration. I would say, every chapter in this book has been read by me over 200 times, and I obsess over making it readable.
Jamie Waller: It should have an average reading age of 11 is what I aimed for in this book is what we say is what we’re about to say. Matter, you know, we just fill in. We put in words down for the sake of words. How do you get to what you’re trying to say in the quickest possible way to keep people’s attention, and that bit for me is difficult, because it means I with my obsession.
Jamie Waller: I don’t sleep much, and I just get into it and into it and into it, and some days I could be sat there, for you know not often, but it, you know, more than more than a handful of times I could be sat in one place for 20 odd hours in in a stretch, you know, simply gets getting up to move to the fridge and then coming back eating while still editing, and stuff like that. So it’s not healthy for somebody like me to write a book too often. I published one in 2017. This one’s published in 2024 every time I do it. I say it’s going to be the last time I do it. But who knows.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah. Well, so I published my book in 23 January 2023 and I thought I would never ever do it again. And now I’ve been working on a book proposal, and it is taking me 9 months to work on the book proposal. I mean, some of that is just like I will go stretches. We’re thinking, this is a terrible idea, and nobody wants to read this book. And why does this matter at all? And then I and then I remember why, it’s important, and then I will work on it.
Miriam Schulman: And I I don’t think I read my chapters 200 times but that, that’s quite a lot actually so. But I I would read it out loud every single time, and every single time it came back from even once it was quote, unquote, done like it came back from copy the copy edit. I was making changes, and then there was like the 3rd pass where they said, well, they accidentally didn’t give it. Tell me that it was ready. And I was like, Wait, aren’t isn’t this due now? And they’re like, oh, well, yeah, that’s right. Here it is, and we need it by… You know.
Jamie Waller: Got it.
Miriam Schulman: Whatever. It was Monday, and it was Friday I was like, no, that’s not enough time. They’re they’re like, no, no, we it’s going to printer on Monday. I was like, Okay, right? Too bad. You know, the curtains going up on this. So too bad for you. Yeah, go ahead.
Jamie Waller: Just isn’t. Remember, because, you know. There are so many easier forms of media now for us to use to get across the same message. Right? So I could, for example, spend 2 weeks doing podcasts and probably get across a lot of the same message. So why would you choose to do a book.
Miriam Schulman: Let’s let’s talk about that, because I want to see if your reason is similar to mine. I suspect it is from what you said about being a curious creative. I find that I get my answers by writing the book like it makes my message stronger by being forced to read it out loud by sharing it with an editor who says, You know you didn’t connect the dots here where I see the dots are connected in my mind because of the way I think, and I think differently than other people. But I didn’t put that on paper. What about you? Is that.
Jamie Waller: Yeah, no, exactly the same. And actually, I think it forces me to because of my dyslexia and my Adhd. I’m very good at being a gem very, very deep, and it makes you become an expert.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, you you did freeze, you froze that. I’m very good at becoming a and then you froze. So spring it back to that thought.
Jamie Waller: Absolutely so, you know, with being both dyslexic and Adhd. I am very good at being a generalist. I’m very good at doing many things at the same time. And what writing a book does is it makes you go very deep and become an expert. And that’s really important for not just those with Dyslexia or Adhd. But creatives in general, you know, if you want to become an expert, it takes a different mindset than maybe going into a room whiteboarding, going into an interview, standing up on stage, telling an audience your message.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, and it’s you know, the podcast. We can let our Adhd kind of run the show. Our listeners don’t care if we’re jumping from one topic to the next. They’re okay with that. But the book kind of chains you to know. This is the idea that you have to talk about, and you have to go deep. So like you said, this is what forces you to go deep.
Miriam Schulman: But the other thing I said or that I how I feel about it is it helps me tap into the wisdom of the universe. Do you get that as well or no?
Jamie Waller: I’m not too sure, I think, what it does to because of the way my book is structured. Actually, both my books are structured where we’re interviewing other people and telling their stories as well what it definitely does. It makes me seriously consider other people’s circumstances and opinions. So, for example, when you write a book on dyslexia it is fairly easy to find 75 year old white men with dyslexia say, but it didn’t do me any harm. Look at me now, now. I don’t think that’s a useful piece of information to get across, because it’s almost saying we’ll just continue as as we have done.
Jamie Waller: And also I don’t. I honestly believe that. Yes, I was born poor with dyslexia and Adhd, but I was. I was born white, British. Speaking English. Poor with Adhd. And it lets if you take another person I interviewed for this book, Chef Philly Chef Philly is the winner of Masterchef. She comes from an Indian heritage. She was going home going, mum. I think I’m dyslexic, and Indians are so focused on education that she was simply told, “don’t be stupid, just work harder.” That was very different for her to deal with her dyslexia.
Jamie Waller: Or Wilfred, who goes under the brand. The black farmer Wilfred emigrated to the Uk. From Jamaica as one of 7, so his experience of dealing with dyslexia being an immigrant in a 2 bedroom flat in a very poor part of the Uk. Was extremely different, or to connect back to the Us. Paul Awfuler, the owner of Kinko print. I went and interviewed Kinko print Paul an immigrant and but from a very middle class background, who had a quite a sort of a pleasant experience of growing up with dyslexia.
Jamie Waller: And I think it’s really important, and I would never have if, unless I did the book I was in grave danger of being the same narrow-minded person of, you know, thinking that my circumstances were the same as everybody else’s.
Jamie Waller: And I think that that’s just not that useful. So what I get out of this creative process is, it enlightens me. It gives me a sense of real understanding, and it makes me have a wider lens on the world and and everybody that impact. I was really 100% focused on having diversity across the book, in sex, in race, in age, in in what they do. You know how they made their money, how they became successful, and that was, I think, the most rewarding thing I could have done for not just my own self, but for the reader.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, it was very obvious. And I definitely appreciated that because in the art world there’s so many books I pick up, and there’s not a single woman in them, and that’s have to be that way. Yeah, you know. Or maybe Georgia O’keefe is the only one, you know. It’s so and it. And it doesn’t have to be that way.
Miriam Schulman: So yeah, we definitely appreciate that. Well, let’s just get to the heart of it. What is the dyslexic edge? So we’re talking about? We have dyslexia. You wrote a book, you interviewed people. They have it, too, and they were successful. But what was the one or 2 things that gave them the edge because of the dyslexia or their other neurodivergence? We don’t have to limit it to just that.
Jamie Waller: It’s a great question. And well, it it’s worth pointing out. Actually, I don’t think I’ve told this story. But when we, when I started the book. It was going to be called dyslexic entrepreneur. And we were just going to focus on entrepreneurs because the statistics are there in your face. 35% of them are dyslexic. But actually, it was when I started working with Dr. Helen Taylor, and I really dived into the research that she’s been doing for the last 22 years, and her research is nothing, nothing more than just beautiful. So what what her hypothesis is is that there’s 2 groups of people born into this, explorers and exploiters.
Jamie Waller: And pre 500 years ago, when we invented this thing called learning, the exploiters were very highly celebrated for 15% of the population approximately are born explorers, and they would go out, as you would imagine, and find food, find new territories, etc. Etc. And when they were successful they would bring it back for the exploiters to take advantage of.
Jamie Waller: Now, if you look at the traits of a dyslexic person, they perfectly match to the traits of an explorer. So we are of the opinion that this lecture is nothing more than a title given to a group of people that just weren’t considered when we invented the pro. The thing that we now call learning. Now you know, the process of reading and writing in the main was brought to us by the church. The church were fearful of knowledge. Drain. People were dying at 30 odd years of age, and they didn’t want the story, the story of the Bible to be forgotten.
Jamie Waller: And we created this thing called reading and writing. Some people managed to pick it up reasonably well, others. Didn’t we believe that those that didn’t were your explorers and those that did were your exploiters? As we progressed into modern day life? We thought, we need to do something about this.
Jamie Waller: No one’s willing to rewrite the process of learning. So what we’ll do is we’ll give them a badge, because if we give them a badge, we can allocate some funding towards it, and if we allocate some funding towards it, it looks like that. They’ve got a disability, and we’re doing something to help them. So I would say that you know the the badge of dyslexia is really a badge of explorer, and the dyslexic thing is just a government’s convenient way to pretend to be doing something about it.
Miriam Schulman: Interesting. I remember reading or learning recently that neurodiversity which includes dyslexia, Adhd and autism, that these aren’t mutations of our species, these evolved as biological strengths, that the society needs our abilities in order to evolve and function and grow. So it is a feature of evolution, not a problem of it. So I think it’s very important that you called it the dyslexic edge instead of the dyslexic entrepreneur, because you’re able to reach people who maybe are in jobs and didn’t consider entrepreneurship, or you know that they that this is something that they should see as a strength for themselves.
Jamie Waller: Exactly. And what the book does very well is, it sort of it’s not written for those with dyslexia is written for anyone. So those with dyslexia can read it and get comfort in knowing that they really they don’t have a deficit. It’s not a disability, but those without dyslexia can pick it up, and quite helpfully.
Jamie Waller: At the end of each chapter we give a couple of pages of key takeaways on how a neurotypical person might implement dyslexic thinking into their own personal development or their own business growth. And I think that’s where we want to get to. We want to get to where people realize that actually, just like having a diverse senior management team made up of both men and women, or both young and old, we should also have dyslexic thinkers within those communities, too, because they add real value. I mean, if you just think some of the most creative things on earth, I mean, you know flight, light, the iphone, all invented by dyslexic thinkers.
Jamie Waller: And the reality is, if if we want to resolve climate change, it’s probably going to be resolved by a dyslexic thinker. It’s it. The history speaks for itself, and that we should celebrate. I would like to see a world where there are advertisements, job advertisements that are actively recruiting for people with dyslexic thinking skills.
Miriam Schulman: Interesting. One of the chapters I particularly enjoyed focused on Kelly Hoppin, the dyslexic designer. Would you like to share a bit of her story for our listeners?
Jamie Waller: Yeah, I mean, Kelly is, I should start by saying she was one of my favorite people to interview. She’s simply wonderful. So Kelly is one of the most famous interior designers on earth. She designed David Beckham and Victoria Beckham’s place in Miami, Sir Richard Branson’s place, I think, out in Switzerland. She’s worked for everyone and anyone. But she started her life in South Africa and then moved, moved to the Uk.
Jamie Waller: And she grew up in a very middle to well class background. So she had money. Her parents were were business owners, so she was surrounded by that, but she was clearly very different in the way she she thought, and how she behaved.
Jamie Waller: For example, one of the great stories about Kelly is, you know, when she was back in South Africa, and and she saw that you couldn’t have black people in in the same hotel as white people. And and she, you know, made sure that she booked ahead to get a ground floor room, and then opened all of the windows, let all of her friends climb in, and then ended up spending a few days in jail because of it. But it’s a really good story. It just goes to show the way she was already thinking.
Jamie Waller: But Kelly, from a very young age, says that she used to just she couldn’t remember anything. She couldn’t remember people’s names. She couldn’t remember data dates, but as a child. You know her mom would be talking about someone, she would say, oh, is that the the girl that was wearing? You know that pink and yellow spot blouse, and her mom would say. “That was 7 years ago.”
Jamie Waller: “How do you remember what she was wearing?” And Kelly couldn’t remember her name, but she was, she knew that she it was becoming quite evident that she was great visual thinker. She could think in images and store them. And then, obviously, that led to her becoming fascinated with homes, interior, and architecture. And what a gift she’s been to the interior design world, I mean. She literally has done some of the best projects on earth.
Jamie Waller: She she’s a lovely person, and she does what she enjoys every day. She’s just remarkable, and she’s she’s been. She’s subsequently been a contributor on BBC. Dragon’s den, which is our shark tank here in the Uk. So she’s had this great career, and she’s you know, she’s creative. She’s bubbly, she’s lovely, and she’s she was a remarkable contributor to the book.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, I loved that chapter very much. It reminded me. Also, I watched a movie recently, Temple Grandin, who is autistic. And in the movie which I think features Claire Danes. It focused a lot about how she thinks in pictures, and Kelly also talked about thinking in pictures. I know a lot of artists who do that. I do that. If I need to remember something I might have a picture in my mind.
Miriam Schulman: I’ll have to pull that picture up in my picture, Rolodex. And what was that word on that picture? And then I’ll know what it is like. I’m able to recall something that way which can be a strength. And sometimes but it all the words you need aren’t always on a picture. So that’s why, like the malpropisms, happen.
Jamie Waller: Absolutely, and I must. I must say I’ve not heard anybody in my life ever mentioned that film other than you. So I think it’s Temple Grandin, and it is one of the most powerful movies that you can ever watch. So if anybody’s looking for something to do bored of flicking through Netflix every Saturday night. I would highly recommend that movie.
Miriam Schulman: I had never heard of it either, and I happened to be on a sleepless transatlantic flight where I was, you know not in 1st class, you know, 11 h on a plane. I was like, what am I gonna watch? So? Yeah, that that was it.
Miriam Schulman: Jamie. It was such a pleasure to have you. I want to tell my listeners the dyslexic edge by Jamie Waller, which I’m assuming you can get on Amazon, wherever books are sold.
Jamie Waller: Yes, where? Where the wherever other bookshops survive, I guess. You can get it in every major bookshop. You can obviously get it on Amazon and anywhere else online. It’s in all formats in all countries around the world. It was released officially, just a couple of weeks ago. So it’s selling brilliantly. The reviews are great. And one thing you know, I’d like to say, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart.
Jamie Waller: If there’s any of your viewers or listeners that simply want a copy and can’t afford a copy or know somebody that would benefit from a copy. They can just reach out to me. My website is my name, and I will make sure a copy in whatever format is best gets to them. This isn’t about selling books. This is really about trying to do something positive in the world of dyslexia.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah, that’s beautiful, Jamie. I always told my listeners. Just go to the library. Yeah, like you can request them to buy any book you want if they don’t have it already, and don’t think that hurts authors. What we we really don’t make a lot of money off of the books. So it’s like, maybe maybe 60 cents a copy after you’ve made back your advance, which takes years. So at this point, we’re what we’re most interested in is getting our messages out because of the blood, sweat, and tears that we we put into them.
Miriam Schulman: All right, Jamie, thank you so much for being here. Do you have any last words for the listeners before we call this podcast? Complete.
Jamie Waller: Just. I guess if if you, if you suspect that somebody could be dyslexic or you suspect yourself, and I do mean anybody from parents right through to children, try and talk to them. Get them a copy of the book, try to make them realize living with it in in silence really is not living your best life, so we can all have an impact on the positives of dyslexia, not just those of us with dyslexia. So we all have a responsibility to try and help that person that might be suffering silently.
Miriam Schulman: You have a great message, and I know my audience is gonna eat it up and congratulations on writing a book. I I know how hard it is, like all the tears I went like like I after I got the contract, you know, signed. I got this huge advance from Harper Collins. It’s like this is what a terrible idea!
Miriam Schulman: I forgot I had a learning disability. What makes me think I could write a book. I don’t know what I’m signed myself up for.
Jamie Waller: You gonna get like Impostor syndrome immediately.
Miriam Schulman: Immediately, immediately, like even I had finished the 3rd round of copy edits like, you know how that 3rd round is. You’re you’re really done done. I was like. Yeah, I should give my advance back.
Jamie Waller: I love it.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com, slash Schulman Art on Instagram at Schulman Art and of course, on SchulmanArt.com.
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