THE INSPIRATION PLACE PODCAST
David Baer: Give them something with the direct instruction or guidance. Use this to share what I do with other people in your circles.
Speaker2: It’s the Inspiration Place podcast with artist Miriam Schulman. Welcome to the Inspiration Place podcast, an art World Insider podcast for artists by an artist, where each week we go behind the scenes to uncover the perspiration and inspiration behind the art. And now your host, Miriam Schulman.
Miriam Schulman: Well, hello and welcome to the Inspiration Place. In case you are new to me, I am Miriam Schulman. I’m author of Artpreneur and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. Our guest today is a veteran direct response marketer who started selling classical music subscriptions, which we’re going to have to chat about using email marketing way back in the 90s because that’s how old we are. Since then, his copy and strategic guidance have earned his employers and clients millions of sales, and he’s the creator of over a dozen online courses and all of these books. You’ll find them in the show notes. Okay. Please welcome to the The Inspiration Place, David Baer. Hello, my friend. How are you?
David Baer: I’m great, by the way. I had no idea that Amazon did this live casting thing. And when I saw the link and then I saw, like, all my books underneath the video, I thought, that’s freaking cool, right?
Miriam Schulman: I mean, I’m an influencer.
David Baer: There you go. You are on the cutting edge of things.
Miriam Schulman: Thank you. I love being on the cutting edge. Yeah, they invited me to join their program based on my Instagram following. That was like about, I don’t know, a month ago. So no, not a month ago, many months ago. Because I’ve been doing this for a while. Yeah, I haven’t really dialed in exactly the best format for it, but it’s a good way to, like, experiment. Yeah, I love doing new things, but I’m very excited to talk about one of your books in particular, I think is going to be of the most interest to my audience, which is why I named today’s show something, something gift with purchase something like that. Okay. But before we get there. David. Yeah. Okay. I know you went to Oberlin. Did you study classical music?
David Baer: I was a stage manager while I was at Oberlin, so I actually stage managed operas. Wow. I took a lot of classes in the conservatory, so I was actually yesterday. No. Monday of this week. We went to the symphony here in Portland, Oregon, and we heard this piece not at the symphony, but on the radio station as we were driving over there by Johann Sebastian Bach called Orff, which is his big cantata that he’s very famous for. And I had a music history teacher who loved saying the name of that piece. And he would like, you know, every time he’d turn around the corner, you’d hear Silvan Suskind say it. And so I just I couldn’t get it in my head. Anyway, that was a tangent or two. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman: So my daughter went to conservatory. She’s a cellist, and she teaches well. This year she’s teaching violin and viola in the South Bronx to in a charter school. Yeah. Oh, excellent. Yeah. She’s making children’s worlds change. You know, these kids who never would have had this opportunity. And they are so grateful. And their parents are so grateful. And I’m just so proud of her. So. Yeah. Yeah.
David Baer: That’s excellent.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah. Okay, so let’s chat about this whole gift with purchase thing, because I know that even when I was a poor financial aid student, that I would always spend extra money on the cosmetics when they had the free gift with purchase. So I know, like this works. This is a thing, so let’s talk about it.
David Baer: I want to put this in some context, because I think the book that you’re referring to of mine is called Incentive to Buy. Yes. And and it’s, it’s introducing the idea of using incentives to get people to make a purchase. But there’s also incentives or gifts in other parts of the business or artist to consumer relationship. And so this is just one of the places where gifting can be strategically used to either incentivize a purchase or to deepen a relationship, or to incentivize a future purchase. Right. So gifting is is just a piece of the puzzle of building the business. And so yeah, you’re absolutely right. Like I love the way you.
Miriam Schulman: Answered that, by the way. That’s what I do when I’m on people’s podcasts. And they ask the wrong question. Like, that’s really interesting. But what you really need to know is, Okay. So let’s talk about that. The very first part of a customer journey. When’s the first time you would introduce some sort of incentive to take the next step?
David Baer: Wow. Well, okay. So.
Miriam Schulman: And the really need to know is.
David Baer: Yeah, I was going to, you know, give another caveat here, but I think what what’s important is to figure out where is it important to use it and where do you not have to use it. Where do you actually undermining your your selling by using gifting. Right.
Miriam Schulman: Okay.
David Baer: Because you know I you mentioned I’m in the classical, you know, world. I was in the theater world, I did a little bit of visual art stuff as an arts administrator, but for the most part, we’re selling something that is a luxury item, a luxury experience. And incentivizing purchase isn’t critical in most scenarios, right? Therefore, it’s not necessarily something that we want to dangle out there, unless we have people who are maybe on the fence, maybe thinking about a purchase, maybe thinking about us versus another option. So if you think about where and again, I’m going to date myself, but where this was classically used in the past, you might you talked about with department stores. But banks used to do this all the time. Oh yeah. Right. Open up a savings account and get a free toaster or something like that.
Miriam Schulman: And there was the classic Sports Illustrated football phone.
David Baer: Do you remember that? Yes. Yeah, I remember that as well. I’m not a sports guy, but I do remember that. Yeah. The idea, though, in those situations is this is the thing that’s going to put you, you know, over the top in terms of making the decision to, to move ahead. And so it’s not essential that you use gifting in selling. Obviously there are places or environments or opportunities where you want to leverage it when appropriate.
Miriam Schulman: Okay. One thing that I know that my audience gets very confused about, and we had this question come up yesterday, is they do confuse the whole idea of a lead magnet with a bonus and. Okay. And I know this might sound basic to you in the worlds that we travel in, but I know for my audience they do get confused and they do overdo it to the point, like you said, where it may even cannibalize a sale because they’re giving away too much, even just to get that email. Do you see that too, as well, with your audience? Absolutely.
David Baer: And by the way, I read your book maybe a year or so ago, and I was reading it and going through and going, you know, this is written for artists, but everything in here applies to pretty much any business I’ve ever encountered. And so, yes, this is this is true. We are in an environment where businesses are investing in tactical or elements of tactics of marketing without understanding the entire reason they’re actually doing these things. Okay. Yeah. So if you step back and you understand the buyer, you understand their psychology as one piece of it, but just their their flow, their day to day activity where you fit into all of it. What you want to figure out is how are you showing up at the right time, with the right communication, with the right offer, with the right lead magnet, or opportunity to buy or invitation in a meaningful way based on their perspective. And so if you think about it that way, it might help you identify where it makes sense to or not to put something in front of them. The the level of what they need to see in order to move on to the next step in your process for for getting them closer. Whether it’s inviting them to your website or to, you know, an exhibit or whatever the process is into your studio to sit down and, you know, chat with you and see your work. There’s all different ways that this can work, but you need to get them basically from one step to the next step to the next step of their process. And that often is is done with overkill because we don’t know what we’re, you know, what we’re putting out in front of them hasn’t really considered what they need.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah.
David Baer: I want to get back to an example. I saw this recently. There was a not an art fair, a market of makers and artists and things here in Portland a few days ago, and I saw a couple of really good things that artists were doing in terms of gifting and lead magnet stuff, and a lot of like missed opportunities, too. And I was I was like, I wanted to run over to each one of these people and say, there’s this book you got to read.
Miriam Schulman: And here’s and you meant not yours. You meant mine, right? I meant yours, not mine. Yes. Well, my husband thinks I should take out a booth at one of these things and just sell it to the other vendors. My book, you know, because it’s like. And you need a book and you need a book.
David Baer: Well, there’s this whole guerilla marketing approach to events, which is you don’t need to buy the booth. You just need to show up with a bag full of your books and talk to the vendors.
Miriam Schulman: True.
David Baer: So don’t waste your money on the booth fee. Just either buy the ticket to the show or just show up.
Miriam Schulman: That’s that’s true. Yeah. That is that is the thing.
David Baer: So here’s something I saw somebody do. They had calendars with their art, and they were giving the calendars away to people who were sort of hanging out in their booth for a while, didn’t buy anything. They would say, hey, thanks. Hey, listen, would you like a calendar? By the way, there’s a. And I don’t know why they did this, but there’s a 10% off coupon and there was some, I think deadline. So there was some urgency built into the coupon. If there’s anything here that you saw that you’d like to, you know, get before, I don’t know, the end of the year or something, but the calendar was 12 pieces of that artist’s work. Right. And so the calendar was then exchanged for an email or some follow up mechanism. So that was a lead magnet.
Miriam Schulman: Too much, too much like let’s break it down. Okay. So a calendar could be a good gift to give to somebody with purchase as we’re, as we titled this whole thing. The coupon is all you need to get the email address, but to give the calendar away that you’re basically spending, then probably the cost of your calendar is at least Dollars to make something like that. I mean, even if you bulk buy, let’s. Let’s go crazy. Let’s say you got it in China and it was only $7 each. You’re paying $7 for an email address. Yeah.
David Baer: So I think this was a good point. Of like, I see what you’re trying to do. There’s probably a more effective way to. Get to the next stage in that relationship. And you know, your your point about the financial investment. Yeah, totally. I saw one that actually we bought something from one of the artists and and he said, by the way, thanks for the order, by the way. We have a couple of extra. I can’t remember what it was. It was like Christmas tree ornaments or something that he was giving away. And all of you had those. Or better yet, and I love the fact that he said, I’d love you to have those, or better yet, give them to somebody who might appreciate them. Now, he didn’t have any additional mechanism to capture that lead to share who he was with that other person. So again, missed opportunity. But yeah, but it was another place where gifting, they kind of got it, but they didn’t fully build out the full plan to realize that, you know, an ideal outcome for themselves.
Miriam Schulman: Hey, when we come back, we’re going to talk about more types of gifts you can give with purchase. But before we do that, I wanted to tell you about one of the gifts that you get when you get Artpreneur. So we have actually a special bonus for not only if you invest in Artpreneur, but actually leave an honest review on Amazon. So we have 52 art journal prompts, which is perfect for you to close the year out or to start journaling on what you want for 2025 and beyond. If you’re listening to this way in the future. So all you have to do is write a review up of Artpreneur if you just downloaded the Kindle or the audiobook and you haven’t had a chance to dive in, the audiobook does have a little bit you do have to listen to before they let you leave a review. I know that there’s a lot of people, or even if you got the paperback, I know there’s a lot of people who don’t want to leave a review until you’ve listened or read the whole thing, but to get this bonus, all you have to say is I can’t wait to get started reading or listening to Artpreneur. That’s totally honest. And hey, if you hate it later, which I don’t think will happen, you can always go back and change your review to a less favorable review. Make it as honest as you want to, but once you’ve written the review, take a screenshot of it, email it to Miriam at TheInspirationPlace.net and my team will immediately gift you with the 52 Art journal prompts. So that is my gift to you. All right, let’s get back to the show. Let’s talk about maybe an idea that would have led to perhaps an additional sale for that artist. Like, what is something I mean, I have some ideas, David. I don’t know if you do about what the artist could have done. So this was a free gift he was giving to someone who bought it was a free ornament we bought.
David Baer: He’s a woodworker. And so he had he had some additional, like little trinkets or probably odds and ends that were, you know, not used in any of the pieces he had made. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman: I’ve seen, you know, sometimes artists I have gotten those types of gifts, which I don’t want to say it’s a bad thing, because I know that when I’ve bought a significant amount of ceramics, let’s just say, and they gave me an additional thing, it does endear me to them. It’s like a little bit of an over delivery. But in terms of capturing a lead, it doesn’t. Necessarily do anything. So I’m also disappointed when I go to these art fairs. How few of those vendors, artists, craftspeople ask me for my email address? It’s always there, just always, usually pointing passively to their QR code. Here’s how you can follow me on Instagram.
David Baer: Yeah, that’s exactly what I encountered, pretty much. And that’s where I said you have missed opportunity here, right?
Miriam Schulman: Yeah.
David Baer: And it’s all the things that we know, right? That’s somebody else’s platform. The likelihood that those people after they follow you are going to encounter you on a regular basis is not reliant on you posting. It’s reliant on a whole bunch of other factors that are out of your control.
Miriam Schulman: That’s right, out of your control and out of their control. When I wrote Artpreneur the first draft, I wrote the average engagement rate on Instagram was 1%. By the time I went to edit that chapter, it had dropped to 0.6%. That’s 0.6, not 6%, but less than 1%. And now, David, it’s at 0.4%. 0.4%. And if you compare that to an open rate on email of 24%, meaning the probability that somebody is going to see your stuff, that means you would need 6000 people on Instagram to have the same effect as 100 people subscribed to your email list. That’s a big difference. That’s a lot more humans that you need to build a business trying to rely, like on Instagram versus email, and not to mention just passively pointing your finger at some QR code and saying, you can follow me. It’s not really going to. I may not even follow. Like who? Like, I’m going to take my phone out and everything versus somebody saying, hey, I would love to invite you to my next show. What’s your email address? Huge difference in that relationship building piece that would make me feel more connected to the artist.
David Baer: Yeah, I was at one booth and I was fascinated with this guy’s art. You know, I was looking at the stuff and I was like, wow, a lot of this feels really familiar. And I said to him, you know who, who are who are the people who influenced you? And he listed a bunch of artists who I was like, oh, I can see like I can see Basquiat there, and I can see Miro there, and I can see this is like fascinating, I love this. Do you like, how do I how do I see your stuff? Do you have a studio? Can I come and visit? Yeah, I do.
Miriam Schulman: I do all right. I know. Oh my gosh. I was like like, just because it’s a yes or no question doesn’t mean you should answer just yes or no. It’s an invitation for you to take that person on the next step on your journey. Yeah, yeah.
David Baer: So much missed opportunity. And man, did I want to like, jump in and say, here’s how you should have answered that question.
Miriam Schulman: I know my kids are always elbowing me like, mom, please don’t coach them now. Yeah, we don’t want to hear it.
David Baer: I did that a couple of times and my wife and daughter just walked away. So I feel you. Okay, so let’s get back to the gifting thing. Obviously gifting to incentivize somebody to give up their contact information. So the lead magnet idea hopefully your audience is now a little bit more clear on like where you should and where you shouldn’t be using it and what’s over the top and what’s too much. And yeah, I’m.
Miriam Schulman: Going to give a very quick rundown of it in case there’s anyone listening to this podcast. Wherever you’re watching this for the first time, a lead magnet is an ethical bribe to get someone to give their email address. It is not free art. I don’t even like the raffle idea. I like something usually that’s digital that doesn’t cost you anything if you’re an artist, just inviting them to be at your next show really is enough. Just like what David just said. If that artist said to him, hey, what’s your email? I’d love to invite you to my next thingy. You would have given your email address just for that, right? Okay, so someone who’s truly interested, you don’t even really have to give them a thing. I wouldn’t call that a lead magnet, but it’s an invitation. A lead magnet usually means they are getting something in exchange for the email. So things I like is perhaps if you’re a 2D artist, it’s a postcard size print of your art, which has your bio and all your information. On the other side, people love that. It could be a digital free art collectors guide. People love that. Those are my two favorite ones.
David Baer: Okay, so let’s move on to a different place where you might use gifting because you titled this something like, you know, you did Art of free gift with purchase. So I.
Miriam Schulman: Did. But we can change the title of the podcast.
David Baer: Because.
Miriam Schulman: This was just for the live stream, right?
David Baer: So I think the idea of, of doing that could be used quite strategically. So I gave the example before of the woodworker who said, here’s some some trinkets, some ornaments. Maybe you want to give them to somebody else. Well, you know, if you have somebody who has decided to invest in you and your work and you want to have the ability to give to them something that could play out in a few different ways, it could benefit them personally, right? They could enjoy a second piece of, of of your work or and I’ve seen this happen in a bunch of different industries. You give them something with the not necessarily the assumption but the direct instruction or guidance. Use this to share what I do with other people in your circles. And, you know, if we tap into what makes the buyer excited about that exchange of the money for the original piece of art, it often is, you know, there’s an emotional reaction to or enhancement to their life of making that investment. They probably are going to display it. They’re probably going to be proud of that acquisition, and they’re probably going to want to share stuff with other people. How could you, as the artist, give them a a tool, a mechanism to have your new buyer introduce you to their friends? And I’m going to circle back to, I think, a point that you made in your book, and I’m not going to remember it exactly, but this is sort of akin to what you were doing when you were doing portraits of with the Queen bee, I think was the concept, or remember what you called it, right. That you’re setting yourself up to use the relationship with this new buyer as they are an influencer, and how can you control as much of the next steps that they’re going to take as possible? And gifting is one of those ways to do it.
Miriam Schulman: All right. I’m just going to jump in and fill in some concrete examples. So for portraits around the holiday time, I would gift people note cards that had the portrait on it. And of course on the back side of that note card, it would have my contact information, but I would give them a set of ten O cards because people are writing thank you notes during this time. They’re writing teacher gifts. During this time they want to show off their painting. And then every time I would get a referral from one of my portrait clients to their friend, like their friend would say, hey, you know, I’m getting this portrait because I saw it in Shelby’s house or whatever. They would get another set of note cards because I knew that that was somebody who was sharing. So they felt very much appreciated for that referral. But also I was giving them something that helped me. So it would it was I call it subsidized advertising. So you’re giving them a gift. Also, people would turn around and say, hey, how I love these note cards. Can I order 100 of them now for my Christmas cards? And it’s not so much. I don’t want the artist to hear me wrong because, you know, you’re maybe you’re going to charge them 2 or $300 to make the note cards. It’s not that you’re going to build a business on that. But again, this is subsidized advertising. If someone’s going to send out 200 cards with your art on it, you better be sure you’re going to get some some business out of that. So that’s what works well in my world.
David Baer: I want to point out something that’s really important about those two examples is that there’s consistency required to actually build out the subsequent sales. Right. And so you have to build a system or process around it. And a lot, a lot of businesses, whether you’re an artist or in any other business, we do things on an as needed basis or sporadically rather than consistently. And so if you build a system or process that actually says, okay, the idea that was it. Shelby Wright gave out all those cards, right? And so then you recognize the fact that those were distributed and that you got you got new clients as a result of it. You had a follow up system in place, right? That’s something that is trackable that you can manage, whether you’re doing it on a spreadsheet or you’re doing it on a on a CRM. There’s lots of ways to support these systems so that it’s not happening haphazardly.
Miriam Schulman: That’s right. David, give me an example that maybe one of your clients use. That doesn’t have to be an art example.
David Baer: There’s a lot of different ways that this plays out. We had a kitchen remodeler that we had done some work with at one point, and they have an entire process around when they install new countertops that they actually order extra material, assuming that the material is right for what I’m about to tell you. And at the end of the process, once the sort of the walk through happens after the kitchen is done, the person who is there for the final visit says, oh, by the way, Mrs. Jones, we had a little bit of extra material, and so I had my my guy craft a customized cutting board to match your new countertop here. It’s it’s on us. You know, I hope you enjoy. Now it’s a moment that they have basically created. That’s going to be a memorable moment to that. Mrs. Jones is going to tell that story on a regular basis. Oh, and who installed your kitchen? Oh, I have I have their card right here. Or I have their card on my refrigerator on a magnet because it was such an and and there are those kinds of impactful, memorable things that any business can build.
Miriam Schulman: Yeah.
David Baer: Actually I have I have one more.
Miriam Schulman: Beautiful.
David Baer: Tell us. And and I think this could be this could be used by any artist. There’s a pool installer. They finished the project. And then as as sort of a celebration of this new pool, the installer says, we’d like to throw you a barbecue. We’ll, you know, invite all your neighbors, invite all your friends. We’re going to do the cooking and we’re going to, you know, sort of have a big send off for the for your new installation. Right. And what happens is everybody’s there, right? Everybody’s talking to the homeowner. Right. The neighbors who are jealous about this pool, they want their own. The guy who installed it is there, you know, flipping burgers at the at the grill. An artist can do the same exact thing. Hey, I’d like to I’d like to have, you know, an unveiling of the new piece once it’s up on the wall or whatever. Let’s have a little celebration in your home. Invite people. Right. You can set that up so that you’re there and it’s an extra little. It’s a gift, right? It’s an extra little perk as part of the purchase.
Miriam Schulman: I love that. Another idea that I just want to give artists is oftentimes charities will come to us for donations, and I love to give donations of and I don’t like my artists to give donations of original art either, because it’s probably not going to bid as high as what it’s worth. It’s not really over. It’s not going to give you the exposure that you think it’s going to. But one thing I do like to give to the charities is similar to the vein that you’re talking about is a wine and cheese party for the host, and maybe 20 of their friends in your studio, like that kind of thing. People think it’s so cool and so special, and it is something that would lead to new clients. Oh.
David Baer: And of course, you collect all of the names and contact information of the guests who show up, and you have, you know, some sort of follow up. And in that scenario, you don’t do a sales pitch, but they’re surrounded by your work, right? There’s what? What are they going to talk about the entire time that they’re there? They’re going to talk about you. They’re going to talk about your inspiration. They’re going to talk about a piece that they see over there. And they’re going to they’re going to want to know the story behind it. There was an artist who was at this show that we were at last week, and as he was talking about his process, he pulled out a notebook or a I don’t know what a sketchbook. Right. And he just said, well, you know, sort of here’s how, here’s how this works. And he just started drawing and my wife was jaw dropped just watching this process now, I think it was a little crass for me to do this, but I did it anyway, which is to say, forgive me, but how much would you like for that? Because while I saw all of the other art that was there in his booth, yes, that was the piece that I had a personal experience with.
Miriam Schulman: Exactly. Because you watched it being created.
David Baer: Yeah, I was curious. I’ve had this experience when I was a kid growing up. I used to go to the Catskills to Grossingers, and there was a guy who, and you may have a strong opinion on this, so I’m eager to hear your, your your thoughts on it. Who billed himself as the world’s fastest artist and he used as a painter, used a similar technique. I don’t I don’t know anything about art. So he used similar technique to like Bob Ross, where you like just glop a bunch of paint on it and then just sort of move it around and create a formation of, of imagery. And he would do this in the lobby in Grossingers and he would auction off his art, and we would all like, put a dollar, you know, in he would collect the dollars, we put our name on it or something, or I think maybe we ripped them in half. And you had the, the, the serial number on both halves. I can’t remember exactly how it worked. And then the, you know, the winner would receive the artwork, which was done in like about five minutes. His name was Maurice Katz. Okay. Was the name of the artist Amazing experience and that piece of art. While you may or may not have liked it because you didn’t even know what it was going to look like before the experience, you now walked away with a story and you’re telling all your friends. You know when you get back home or at Hadassah or wherever the heck you’re going, right? Hey, I got this amazing piece. The next time you go to Grossingers, you got to check this guy out.
Miriam Schulman: I love that, so I don’t know if you knew this or not, but my husband grew up in the Catskills, so I didn’t. Yeah, I actually got married. Not. Not in Grossingers, but the Italian hotel over there, because that was all that was still around when I got married, but it was still aroma. But yeah. So what was the question? What do I think of that kind of art? Or what do I think? Well, it’s fast.
David Baer: I guess. It has nothing to do with the kind of art because we, you know, I don’t know.
Miriam Schulman: What the art looks like, so I can’t even judge. But art is so subjective to like. So a lot of times when artists come to me, I never base it on like what I think of their art. I will ask them, you know, what’s your sales history? What is you know, if I’m if they’re trying to get into a higher level. Of course I like to believe in their art, but I think it’s really important to do experiential events. That is actually one of the things that I can’t remember when the podcast comes out either. I think it comes out before this one about the five trends for 2025 and beyond, and I did list immersive experiences as one of the trends to lean into for 2025 with your art. And it’s not just art, as you said in the beginning. Like these things, they apply to everything because everything moves together and is in conversation and people are looking for experiences, they’re looking for escape. And any time you can involve somebody and they feel a part of it, they’re going to already be invested and want to have a part of that. So you’ve been such a great guest today, David. I’m so happy to have you. I have a few little things to share before we wrap up, because this is sponsored by our friends over at Amazon. So Artpreneur is on sale right now for Black Friday, so you can get it for $15. And whatever the scents are that I can’t read because it’s a little too small for me to read on the screen. Schulmanart.com forward slash Amazon. If you are not on Amazon right now, we have linked it up for you below, as well as all of David’s books are all linked in the carousel. Start with strategy and send it to buy small business email and the prepared marketing system. Because we talked a lot about having a system in place to really make these strategies work for you. All right. So let’s wrap up. Do you have any last words for my listeners before we call whatever this is we’re doing complete?
David Baer: I think that that last little point that you made is the one that I always end with, which is if you don’t have consistency and predictability in your business, look at where there are systems that are missing and figure out what those should be and build them.
Miriam Schulman: I love that. All right. So thank you, my friend, for being with me here today. I’ll see you the same place next time. Until then, stay inspired. Bye for now.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to The Inspiration Place podcast. Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/schulmanart, on Instagram @schulmanart and of course, on SchulmanArt.com.
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